主题：【原创】在查经班的日子 -- 映日荷花

花!

当然，俺这么说，有 being judgmental 的问题。如果冲撞了大家，还请原谅

西人教会经过长期历史实践和与其他分支、其他信仰的斗争，其宗教专职人员以及很多教会的核心人员(资深长老)，在历史文化学养方面和逻辑自洽方面都是令人敬佩的。北美的华人教会历史短，由于历史原因一直就比西人教会社区更为保守狭隘和机械；自大陆80年代改革开放以后中国学子和非法打工人员大量涌入北美，原有华人教会在扩张中求量不求质，因此华人教会在学养、逻辑等方面进一步走低，也更趋于保守和原教旨，比如将圣经上的文字奉若圭臬，对于那些不符合逻辑甚至很明显是笔误造成的前后矛盾，就采取诡辩的方式进行遮护。这就不好了。再有就是拼命拉人入教，而不是靠“活出上帝的样子来”去吸引他人自然而然地接近基督教。而西人教会则有趋于“文化基督教”的较为开明的教会。

很大程度上，一个人是否从心里接纳并跟从一个信仰，受“接引人”的学养和道德智慧的影响极大。一个天生就对基督教信仰有着模糊排斥力，又具有独立思考意识和能力、具有现代科技知识、基本历史文化学养的人，如果没有遇到一个真正的基督教信仰高人，很难说服自己接受。很可能一辈子都不会接受。某种角度来说，这也是缘分吧 --- 或者用基督教内的说法，就是你没有被神所选中。

我赞同采薇和bnugirl的看法：follow your heart. 同时依靠自己的精神风貌去影响他人，而不是死乞白咧地拉人入教。

我的一点粗浅的观察和思考结果是：

一个逻辑思辩能力特别强而且也特别崇信逻辑思辩的人，比一个这方面一般强也不那么崇信的人，更难接受基督教(或其他宗教。佛教不在此列)；但一旦接受了，其贡献要大得多。(我没有亲眼看到过逻辑思辩超强的高人，但我的很多朋友都提起过这样一个人。另外我也的确见到过这方面非常好的人，可惜无缘与他进一步交流。)

基督教信仰的根本是信仰，不是人的逻辑理性。人的逻辑理性对人们大致了解基督教历史和信仰有帮助，但在接受时反而有阻力。

基督教信仰是个人体验，你没有那种体验，不能认为别人有那种体验就是自欺欺人，更不能认为别人有那种体验就是什么走火入魔、幻听迷思。对别人说的事，宜持开放和“不知道”的心态。对基督教信仰(或任何信仰) 都应取 follow your heart 的态度，不信不要勉强，对那些硬逼你做什么的人不必有什么歉疚。

俺的一个旧贴，饱受奚落讽刺的一贴，呵呵

http://www.ccthere.com/article/1138896

是否可以理解成宗教信仰从根本上是感情的需要而不是出于理智上的“信”？

有人这样说过：真正的信仰是基于理性 而又最终超越理性的

我比较认同这个说法。

这个说法的隐含逻辑前提是 --- 人是有限的，人多逻辑思辩和理性这些东西也都是有限的。逻辑理性可以帮助人进门，可一旦进了门，却一直死抱着自己的逻辑理性不撒手，也是偏颇的，因为人类的逻辑理性往往会让人有严重的“这个肯定不对”“那个绝对不合理”的自负倾向。到了一定时候，要提醒自己不要太相信自己的理性判断。

This is sure that Lord does not exist, otherwise scientists had no need to develope atomic weapons to bomb Japanese. If all Christians on anti-Fascist side sincerely had prayed from Monday to Sunday over and over, and that should have touched Lord's heart and he would have kicked Hitler's ass and wiped out those armies with "Gott mit uns" on belts, as he has done in bible before many times.

However, human being has social needs. Food and sex only cannot satisfy some people, particularly those sentimental as well as thoughtful emotional guys, who luckily not worried about life and has plenty of time. So they gather together to share their life experience, such as talking about their understanding of life, their pains, and their happiness. They sing out the their dedicated love for Lord. I would consider church is a soul club, where poeple repair their own soul with the help of father. It is like those sports club, such as golf club, cricket club, people with the same hobby come together, and play a game to let out their vigors accumulated in the body during the whole week.

Good or bad, church does provide a place for people to social, which would greatly reduce the pain people suffer from life. It practically reduces the number of mentals and it serves as the refuge for many people internally weak. As a result, it helps to maintain a stable community. I would believe this is the reason Christian came to exist and survives till now. However, it also makes many people get addicted to it.

认识到个人的理性存在局限和极限，应该是朝着理性又走近了一步。

我的问题是，如果认识到每个人的理性都有其限制，那么又如何能接受那些全知全能的存在呢？如果相信有这样一个存在，那么把自己交给他确实是很省心的事情，但我觉得这是出于感性的需要，而并不能说是超越了理性。

在您看来，意识到人类的理性有限，于是接受全知全能 是不够理性的表现，但另一

些人却认为，从逻辑上讲，既然意识到人类理性的有限，却仍然要死抱着自己的理

性，这才是不够理性的表现。

对于一些具有超强逻辑思辩能力的人来说，将自己的心和灵魂交给那个全知全能的

being，恰恰是在长期以自己的逻辑思辩与那个全知全能的思想体系进行比较而心

服口服的结果。这恐怕又是一个说不清 --- 你怎么能说这个结果就一定是感情的诉

求，而完全不是理性思维的结果呢？

一堆人讨论说要先信然后再去理解。 我无语了，同样的逻辑可以套在任何东西上面。

外链出处

我也是学物理的

许多传道人都喜欢讲科学 说明科学和宗教并不矛盾 宗教并不是反科学的

其实观点是对的 但是很多传道人是文科出身 讲科学常常有逻辑错误

所以传道人是有限的 不管是学理科还是文科 不可能毫无瑕疵 所以我建议自己读圣经 不要光听别人讲 大家都是受过高等教育的 不可能听别人三言两语就改变自己的人生观世界观

“各司其职，荣耀上帝”，这是哪个教派的信条啊？

这个到真的是有点意思的，呵呵，才有点信仰的味道啊。

More specifically speaking, I was teasing him all the time, not persuading him to swith his religion to science, which I would consider it is unlikely. It is quite rediculous that those believers are hard to listen to other people regarding religions. For instance, both Bibles used in Christian and Muslem in fact are from same origin, what is the point for these people to form different religions and fight each other? It is like both atomic bombs made in U.S.A and Russia could kill people. Thus we term them as atomic bomb instead of U-bomb and R-bomb. This reminds me time of cultural revolution, when two groups of people fought each other all under the name of proctecting Chairman mao.

I was teasing the father because the party in church was too boring. People didn't talk anything funny and weird. So, I was trying to throw a brick to break the ice. The father was kept on selling their theories. To his surprise, I totally understood his religion, and agreed with him that religion could formulate one's life, and garantee people could feel happy after death and reduce the pain in this life. But I further suggested to him science is also a religion, which means both he and I was doing the same thing. Considering the experiences I had at that time, I should be a quasi-father either-I supervised a couple of Indian fellows before. It is not neccessary for him to make me join his group. We were in the same trench, but belong to different units. However, there some difference between his religion and the religion I was working with. My religion burns money from NIH and has sort of outcomes - some conclusions the might or might not help people to make money. His religion purely burns money from all those believers' pockets-it is a final consuming merchandise. If you would like to argue there are some outcomes else, I would say all those smiling faces coming out from church would be...

They also turn themselves into alcohol... a true spirit