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主题:【链接(集)】The Telepathy Debate -- 衲子

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  • 家园 【链接(集)】The Telepathy Debate

    2004年1月15日 在 Royal Society of Arts 举办的关于心灵感应的辩论.

    点看全图

    外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

    反方: Prof. Lewis Wolpert

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    外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

    正方: Dr. Rupert Sheldrake

    辩论主持 Edward Nugee

    辩论的简介

    收听辩论

    辩论的文字档

    《Nature》2004/01/22 对这场辩论的报道

    关键词(Tags): #心灵感应#辩论
    • 家园 【翻译】蓝头山雀的盗奶奇闻

      在1921年英国的小镇Southampton, 一个奇怪的现象被发现了. 当地的一种小鸟--蓝头山雀 会在早晨用喙撕破送奶工人送来的奶罐上的封口,把牛奶上层的奶油喝光. 甚至发生了几起蓝头山雀头朝下被淹死在奶罐里的悲剧. 这种现象,竟然由一个小镇很快扩及全国。 令人不解的是,蓝头山雀的活动范围很小,离巢不远于四五英里, 飞行能力亦十分有限。对此现象作研究的学者得出结论, 各地的蓝头山雀必须"独立"发明了不下50次. 此外, 这种习性的传播速度也随着时间的推移而加速. 在欧洲的其它地区, 比如荷兰和北欧, 当开始送鲜奶后, 同样的现象也发生了.

      二战及稍后(1939-1948年间),因牛奶匮乏,暂停了送鲜奶的服务. 因为蓝头山雀只能活两三年,所以到1948年,恐怕没有曾偷喝牛奶的蓝头山雀还活着了. 可是当鲜奶重新发送后,"偷奶"行为再度发生. 并且这次的扩散速度比战前更快.

      Rupert Sheldrake 用他的"形态谐振"理论来解释这个现象. 个体的改变会引起该种生物共有的"形态场"的改变,继而引出更多的共鸣,于是整体就随着改变。 类似的现象: 报纸上的填字游戏在晚上或第二天做起来更容易, 因为此时别人已经做过了, 故而答案已存于"形态场"中.

      摘译自:

      外链出处

      [衲按:] 这个所谓的"形态场"其实很象荣格所提出的"集体潜意识"概念. 另, 对这个"盗奶技巧传播"的解释不止一种. 我个人自然倾向于用生物群体耦合的阿赖耶识(落谢的共业种子及其现行,etc.)来解释.

      • 家园 【文摘】蓝头山雀的盗奶奇闻2

        The Living Company, by Arie de Geus, 1999:

        The United Kingdom has a long standing system of delivering milk in bottles to the door. At the beginning of the 20th century these milk bottles had no top. Birds had easy access to the cream which settled in the top of the bottle. Two different species of British garden birds, the blue tits and red robins, learned to siphon up cream from the bottles and tap this new, rich food source.

        This innovation, in itself, was already quite an achievement. But it also had an evolutionary effect. The cream was much richer than the usual food sources of these birds, and the two species underwent some adaptation of their digestive systems to cope with the unusual nutrients. This internal adaptation almost certainly took place through Darwinian selection.

        Then, between the two world wars, the UK dairy distributors closed access to the food source by placing aluminium seals on their bottles.

        By the early 1950's the entire blue tit population of the UK, about a million birds, had learned how to pierce the aluminium seals. Regaining access to this rich food source provided an important victory for the blue tit family as a whole; it gave them an advantage in the battle for survival. Conversely, the robins, as a family, never regained access to the cream. Occasionally, an individual robin learns how to pierce the seals of the milk bottle. But the knowledge never passes to the rest of the species.

        In short, the blue tits went through an extraordinarily successful institutional learning process. The robins failed, even though individual robins had been as innovative as individual blue tits. Moreover, the difference could not be attributed to their ability to communicate. As songbirds, both the blue tits and the robins had the same wide range of means of communication: colour, behaviour, movements, and song. The explanation could be found only in the social propagation process: the way blue tits spread their skill from one individual to members of the species as a whole.

        In spring, the blue tits live in couples until they have reared their young. By early summer, when the young blue tits are flying and feeding on their own, we see birds moving from garden to garden in flocks of eight to ten individuals. These flocks seem to remain intact, moving together around the countryside, and the period of mobility lasts for two to three months.

        Robins, by contrast, are territorial birds. A male robin will not allow another male to enter its territory. When threatened, the robin sends a warning, as if to say "Keep the hell out of here." In general, red robins tend to communicate with each other in an antagonistic manner, with fixed boundaries that they do not cross.

        Birds that flock, seem to learn faster. They increase their chances to survive and evolve more quickly.

        "Bonkers About Birds":

        Fact Eighteen: Blue tits used to open milk bottle tops to drink the cream. They stopping when semi-skimmed milk became popular.

        The Final Empire: The Collapse of Civilization and the Seed of the Future, by WM. H. K?tke, Book Two: The Seed of the Future, Part I. Creating a Whole Life, Chapter 13: The Principles of Life, "The Moral Basis of the Life of the Earth":

        In Southampton, in 1921, a blue tit was observed to peck through the foil cap of a milk bottle, tear the foil back and drink from the bottle. The spread of this habit was recorded at regular intervals from 1930 to 1947. There are eleven species to which this habit has spread but it is most frequently confined to great tits, coal tits and blue tits. After the first observation of this "milk poaching," the habit was seen to spread rapidly through England where sometimes flocks of tits would follow milk delivery people through the neighborhoods waiting for the milk bottles to be put on people's porches. The detailed studies of this phenomenon show that the habit was independently "discovered" by individual tits 89 times in the British Isles. In the view of morphic resonance, this habit pattern resonated within the tit species and the pattern was then increasingly manifest by individual tits. During World War II milk deliveries in England stopped for the duration that was longer than the normal tit life span, yet when milk deliveries commenced again, tits all over England again began to take up the habit. After the war, "It seems certain that the habit was started in many different places by many individuals," researchers said. The habit also spread to Sweden, Denmark and Holland.

        • 家园 谢谢道长的资料. 我怎么看着大都是支持"形态场"模型的?

          尤其是这个 "The detailed studies of this phenomenon show that the habit was independently "discovered" by individual tits 89 times in the British Isles."

          也就是说, 并非 (A)源自一只聪明的山雀的发现, 然后通过"依葫芦画瓢"从它传播至全英国的山雀; 而是 (B)有许多(89只)山雀独立发现了这个窍门, 各自传播给较小范围内的山雀(与山雀活动范围大致匹配).

          如果是(A), 那么我的解释就站不住脚, 因为自发灵感只是一次性的极偶然的事件, 随后的扩散完全依赖群体间的沟通.

          幸而是(B), 就是说, 自发灵感可能发生多次, 这样的话, 如果自发灵感的概率增大, 譬如从(89次)/(全英国的山雀) 增大到(200次)/(全英国的山雀), 那么这时全英国的山雀都学会这项技巧的时间无疑将缩短. 因为在200次的case, 每只'聪明'山雀只需传播给英国山雀population的1/200, 这显然比传播给1/89的population的扩散时间更短.

      • 家园 【文摘】蓝头山雀的盗奶奇闻1

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        外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

        我懒得一个个地去翻译了。大家自己看好了。

        [URL=The Cream Myth] http://www.thecorpuscle.com/2005/04/index.html[/URL]

        A party conversation, April 16, 2005:

        (Dialogue is an approximation. Some inebriation may be involved.)

        C: You remember that show we taped?

        T: What show?

        C: The one with the birds. Stealing the cream.

        T: Oh, yeah. Don't know if we taped it, though.

        C (facing M): These birds, over in England, they... On people's porches, the milkman would leave people's milk? The bottles had little tin-foil tops on them and these birds learned how to peck through the foil covers and drink the cream. That was before the war. And then when the war came along they stopped delivering people's milk. For the whole war. Five years later they started again, and these birds, their life spans were only like one year or something, but after five years, when they started delivering the milk again, the birds knew how to peck through the foil and get the cream.

        M: Wow. It's like there was a Bird Library. They went to the Bird Library and looked up how to get the cream.

        C: Right. Somehow the knowledge was preserved.

        M: Or they had legends. Bird legends.

        T: Right. (after a brief pause.) The Cream Myth.

        The Many Faces of Psychological Research in the 21st Century, Jane S. Halonen, Stephen F. Davis, Editors (2005?), Chapter 13, "Comparative Psychology and Animal Learning", by Jesse E. Purdy and Michael Domjan:

        In 1949, Fisher and Hinde reported on birds (blue tits) that had been robbing cream from milk bottles delivered to the doors of English homes. Observers speculated that a single blue tit had discovered, probably quite by accident, how to peck through a bottle cap and consume the rich cream that floated on top of the milk. The occurrence of milk theft then gradually spread throughout the whole of England and into Europe through some form of social learning.

        The Aggressor's Way, 2nd Edition (2004), by Francis Hardy:

        The small British bird, the blue tit, has the annoying habit of pecking the covers of milk bottles that are delivered outside the doors of many UK homes, and then drinking the milk from the tops of the bottles. This practice was first reported in 1921 near Southampton in southern England, and observations over the years have shown that the habit has been slowly spreading from this area ever since. The evidence suggests that the technique was probably discovered by one particularly innovative bird and has been spreading by simple imitation. Of course, no one knows the exact circumstances of the initial discovery of this new source of food but it could have been a simple case of serendipity - as for example a bird pecking at an insect which had settled on a milk bottle cover and then finding that its beak went through the cover and into the delicious tasting liquid underneath. Many blue tits in the UK are now adept at exploiting this rich source of food - particularly in hard winters when more conventional food is scarce - and there is evidence that other bird species, such as the house sparrow and marsh tit, are also taking up the habit.

        • 家园 【文摘】蓝头山雀的盗奶奇闻3

          The Co-Intelligence Institute, "More on Morphogenetic Fields":

          Experiment 1: In the 1920s Harvard University psychologist William McDougall did experiments for 15 years in which rats learned to escape from a tank. The first generation of rats averaged 200 mistakes before they learned the right way out; the last generation 20 mistakes. McDougall concluded that, contrary to accepted genetic science, such acquired knowledge could be inherited.

          Experiment 2: In later efforts to duplicate McDougall's experiments in Australia, similar rats made fewer mistakes right from the start. Later generations of rats did better even when they were not descendents of the earlier rats. This wasn't genetics at work. It was something else. Nobody tested it further.

          "Experiment" 3: In the 1920s in Southampton, England, a bird called the blue tit discovered it could tear the tops of milk bottles on doorsteps and drink the cream. Soon this skill showed up in blue tits over a hundred miles away, which is odd in that they seldom fly further than 15 miles. Amateur bird-watchers caught on and traced the expansion of the habit. It spread faster and faster until by 1947 it was universal throughout Britain. In a parallel development, the habit had spread to blue tits in Holland, Sweden and Denmark. German occupation cut off milk deliveries in Holland for eight years -- five years longer than the life of a blue tit. Then, in 1948 the milk started to be delivered. Within months blue tits all over Holland were drinking cream, a habit that had taken decades to take hold before the war. Where did they get this knowledge?

          [...]

          What is going on here?

          Sheldrake has hypothesized a field of morphic ("pattern-related") resonance in which patterns of knowledge, structure or behavior of a certain kind of thing (whether a salt crystal or a human mind) become increasingly embedded as a "habit," an ingrained pattern of information which influences and is accessible to other members of that category of thing. In commenting on the rat experiments, Sheldrake said: "If rats are taught a new trick in Manchester, then rats of the same breed all over the world should show a tendency to learn the same trick more rapidly, even in the absence of any known type of physical connection or communication. The greater the number of rats that learn it, the easier it should become for their successors."

          A minority of biologists have been suggesting the possibility of morphogenetic (form-generating) fields for decades. Sheldrake's unique contribution has been to create a testable hypothesis regarding such fields. Despite the fact that it seems to violate all broadly-accepted principles of science, the experimental evidence is rapidly mounting that, indeed, something of this kind is at work.

          The Cream Myth: From the mind of Man, or from bird brains?

          抱歉分了三个帖子,木有办法,5000字上限的规定阿。没有别的意思,就是让大家把所有的有关报道都看一看,看完了您再去看纳子和这位Sheldrake老兄的推论。抱歉昨天没有把所有的东西都给翻译过来。实在是懒得纠缠了。有时间,该干点正经事了。

      • 家园 【评论】蓝头山雀的盗奶奇闻

        以前的一位老先生曾经说过,研究大家一样做,故事要看你怎么讲。现在让大家听听这个故事的另外一个版本。

        英国送牛奶的系统有着很久远的历史。20世纪的大多数时间,牛奶使用瓷瓶子,就是我们很多人和瓶装的酸奶用的那种瓶子。这些瓶子使用完后,会被回收重新利用。如果大家的岁数足够大,家境足够好,也许很多人还记得,当时每天早上的工作就是拿进装满牛奶的瓶子,然后把昨天的瓶子放在门外。在20世纪初的时候,装牛奶的瓶子是没有封口的。当牛奶瓶子被放到门口之后,如果没有迅速的被收进家中,这些瓶子就成为许多鸟类甚至小动物的饮水瓶。

        有两种常见的鸟类,蓝头山雀点看全图

        外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

        和红色知更鸟点看全图

        外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

        学会了,从这种开放的牛奶瓶中,吸取上层的奶油。并且很快的适应了这种富含营养的食物。这种创举,实际上属于一种进化性的行为。因为奶油这种食物所含有的热量,要远远超过其他食物所含的热量,如果我们把获得这种食物所花费的时间和能量与其他的食物所花费的时间和能量相比较,我们会发现这种食物无疑具有极大的优势。一旦这两种鸟类的消化系统习惯了这种新的食物来源,这两种鸟类将会获得巨大的进化优势。

        这种巨大的进化优势很可能就是英国的家麻雀数量相对下降的一个原因。蓝头山雀和家麻雀具有相近的个头,近似的食谱,很相近的生活习俗,以及很相近的筑巢习惯——选择已经存在的树洞。20世纪初的时候,蓝头山雀的数量一度下降到令人担心的地步,而与此同时,家麻雀占据了绝大多数人家的花园。而到了70年代后期,家麻雀的数量却大大下降。现在蓝头山雀已经成为了英国的花园中一种主要的常见鸟。

        这就扯得远了,现在言归正传。 两次世界大战期间,随着电解铝技术的普及,铝的价格直线下降,并逐渐被应用到日常生活中。英国也开始用铝箔来把牛奶瓶给封口。知更鸟从此便失去了这种富含营养的食物,相反的是蓝色山雀,却依然的享用着这种高营养的食物。尽管有着二战期间的停断。到1950年,全英国几百万的蓝头山雀,都已经学会了享用这种不劳而获的食物。而尽管许多知更鸟个别的学会了这种行为,这个技能却一直没能够传播到所有的知更鸟。

        至于这其中的原因,很多研究者认为跟着两种鸟类的生活习俗有关。

        春天的时候,蓝头山雀以小夫妻的形式生活在一起,一起抚养自己的7-13个后代。到了夏天,当小山雀离巢独立养活自己的时候,蓝头山雀的夫妻形势便告一段落,而代之以8-10只鸟集合在一起的小群。这些小团体会生活在一起,花两到三个月的时间漫游全国,直到下一个生育季节来临。

        而知更鸟则是独行侠的典范。知更鸟是地域性的鸟类,会攻击任何进入其地域的同类以及异类的鸟。知更鸟之间的争斗可以用血腥来描述,正如传说中知更鸟的头部和胸部的红色是被鲜血染红的一样,知更鸟之间的争斗是非常激烈的,很多时候不仅仅会造成伤口,还会导致一目失明甚至死亡。知更鸟用歌声来表明自己的地盘,无论是雄鸟还是雌鸟,都有自己的地盘。但是到了圣诞节期间,知更鸟开始行动来找寻自己的配偶。如果两只雄鸟相遇,就会有一场恶斗。战斗通常从天空打到树上,再从树上打到地面。两只鸟用鸟喙、爪子和翅膀进行战斗,通常这种战斗指挥持续几分钟,但是偶然也可以看到两只鸟打斗几个钟头甚至一天,极个别的情况下,两只鸟可以打上好几天。到一月中旬,配对基本结束,这个时候雌鸟就不再鸣叫,专心的作贤妻良母,而雄鸟则继续自己的歌王生涯。捍卫自己的地盘和妻小。等到夏季的时候,雌雄鸟便分开,再次开始各自的独行侠直到下一个圣诞来临。

        因此,蓝头山雀之间的这种组织方式大大的促进了彼此间生活方式的交流。而知更鸟的特立独行则使他们丧失了获得这种高热量食物的能力。

        就是不知道知更鸟为什么不能够用"形态谐振"理论或者生物群体耦合的阿赖耶识(落谢的共业种子及其现行,etc.)来解释.

        [妖道按]凡事不追根问底,道听途说之后,便以大名瓷唬人,古今便是一道风景线,一笑。

        关键词(Tags): #蓝头山雀#偷奶#知更鸟元宝推荐:四月一日,
        • 家园 【回应】技能的获得有两个途径:自发灵感、模仿学习

          “自发灵感”(spontaneous inspiration)指无师自通地发明某种技能, 而生物的群体关系将影响这种技能通过依葫芦画瓢式的“模仿学习”(imitative learning)在生物个体间的扩散速率。

          自发灵感通常是小概率事件, 譬如说, 鸟儿有1%(此数据并不精确,这只为打个比方说明问题)的概率能自发地‘顿悟’啄破奶瓶封口偷奶喝的技巧。 如果这个技巧没能通过模仿学习而得到传播,那么大概只有1%左右‘独创的’鸟儿‘发明家’才掌握这种技巧。

          自发灵感获得技能的概率似乎随着这种技能在历史上,以及在别的群落内的积累而增长(若排除了基因编码的原因),这是"形态谐振"论、群体潜意识 等模型 所针对的问题。

          “The rate of spread of the habit accelerated as time went on.” 二战后重新送奶,“The behavior spread much more rapidly and cropped up independently much more frequently the second time round than the first time. This example demonstrates the evolutionary spread of a new habit which is probably not genetic but rather depends on a kind of collective memory due to morphic resonance.”

          外链出处

          "A NEW SCIENCE OF LIFE"节 的 第四第五段.

          在山雀的例子中, 设原先有1%的自发灵感概率, 加上通过模仿学习的流传, 一年内全英国的山雀要么顿悟,要么学会偷奶喝了. 因为现在掌握这个技巧的山雀数量众多, 因此存储于它们的"形态场",或"集体潜意识", 或"阿赖耶识的共业种子"的信息就强. 以后的自发灵感概率增长到4%. 解释了日后传播的加速.

          而在知更鸟的例子中, 由于它们独行侠的风范, 偷奶技巧没能通过模仿学习得以传播。所以只有少数的发明家才拥有此不传之秘。不过, 完全有可能随着时间的推移, 以后的知更鸟独自领悟‘独孤九剑’的概率从以前的1%增长到, say, 1.5%。 为什么只有1.5%,而不是4%呢? 因为掌握技巧的知更鸟少,所以存储于其形态场的信息较弱. (从订奶的客户看来,依然只有零散的知更鸟偷奶喝的事件. 这不是啥了不得的大事, 当然更不会注意到其较为微弱的变化趋势.)

          所以, 形态谐振、集体潜意识、耦合的阿赖耶识 可以解释both山雀and知更鸟的cases. 窃以为大作没抓住要领.

          • 家园 看剃刀

            The behavior spread much more rapidly and cropped up independently much more frequently the second time round than the first time.

            根本上这用正常的理论就可以解释,不需依赖什么看不到的神秘场,不必要的假设啊。

            偷奶是一种复杂行为,啄奶瓶只是其中一个步骤,没有奶瓶可啄,不代表鸟儿不会继续留意每家的大门,或者尝试啄其他东西,这些行为依然可以经由模仿学习传给下一代。要一只鸟忘掉一种non-reinforced的行为需要时间,而且是体现在行为频率的逐渐衰减,不是说不送奶后一下子就会放弃了,不做了,然后到下一代就会完全忘记了。

            对整个物种来说,改变集体行为所需的时间会更长,很可能在战前很长的一段时间内,鸟群已经完全改变了平时落脚的习惯,改变了它们的主要寻食地区。这不一定完全由奶造成,人类产生的其他垃圾都可能成为鸟的食物。随着人口增加、居住点规模的发展,鸟儿在有人区活动的比例会越来越大,这也完全可以造成第二次学习比第一次学习更快。更别说在新颖多变的人工环境下,那些肯尝试新事物的鸟儿获得了更大的生存优势,在自然选择下这种好奇心大的鸟数目越来越多,第二次出现的‘发明家’也就会比第一次更多,这又是一个理由。

            • 家园 嗯,你这个解释很有道理. 花一个! 所以"山雀盗奶"

              只算是个marginal的例证. 因为有许多因素不能control, 所以难以将某些行为确定地归结到一个原因上面.

        • 家园 老鼠盗水被淹死该怎么解释呢?

          老鼠盗水被淹死该怎么解释呢?

          关键词(Tags): #老鼠#盗水#淹死
          • 家园 老鼠盗水被淹死该怎么解释

            这倒是个难题,

            我想,您说的这只老鼠,应该是淹死在一个表面比较光滑的容器中,是吧?

            一般说来,灰家鼠,就是我们常见的那种大耗子,水性相当的好。有纪录表明这种老鼠可以再不靠岸的情况下凫水一两天的时间。当然,也许您的那只老鼠坚持了四五天之后,终于坚持不住了。或者,那只老鼠一头栽下水的时候,不小心呛死了。或者,就是一只不会水的旱老鼠也未必。

            • 家园 这只可怜的老鼠,是自己倒着爬进瓶子里淹死的!

              就是普通的塑料瓶装饮用水,可能是600ml或550ml那种的。

              我打开喝了一点儿,然后放在窗台上--盖子扔了。

              晚上回到家,看到里面泡着老鼠--已经淹死了。

              它的姿势是头上尾下的。(好象历史传说,老鼠偷油吃就是这样的,坐在油瓶口,把尾巴伸进去,把油蘸出来吃。)

              可能此鼠也想如法炮制,没想到自己身子骨小了点儿,整个出溜下去了,瓶子里没有借力的地方,就爬不出来了。 :)

              从它淹入水的时间看,应该不超过12小时,你说的“老鼠可以再不靠岸的情况下凫水一两天的时间”在此案例中未能验证。 :)

              此外,还有次捉鼠,是更幼小些的鼠,落到浴缸里了,浴缸是干的,无水,当然不会淹死。我回去的时候,它还很活跃。但是浴缸四壁比较光滑,它也无法借力爬出来。另外,它还幼小,素质上看,也无能力直接跳出来。我见到它,就拿个瓶子,上次淹死老鼠的瓶子同类,把它脑袋抵住,它就爬进来了。终处以火刑。 :)

              关键词(Tags): #老鼠#淹死#火刑#瓶装饮用水
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