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主题：【原创】抛砖引玉,翻译<<经济学人>>留言板 -- 深大
家园 【原创】抛砖引玉,翻译<<经济学人>>留言板 响应"厚积薄发"的号召.不过我的英文和中文水平都很差,也没有很多时间,希望河友们也能加入这个工作,如同"厚积薄发"所说,学习一下他们的辩论,了解一下他们的观点.
frank gerlach wrote:March 16, 2008 07:26
It seems that the chinese authorities have reacted appropriately, considering the racial hatred and violence of the tibetians. Burning and looting the property of a minority is not exactly coherent with the Dalai Lama's propaganda message of peacefulness.
I think outsiders should be careful to put too much trust in to what the chinese govt and the Dalai Lama say.
看到藏人的种族仇恨和暴力,看起来中国政府的反应是恰当的.焚烧和抢劫少数人并不符合达赖喇嘛所宣传的和平.我认为外届不应过多相信中国政府和达赖喇嘛的话。
Semicrazy wrote:March 16, 2008 07:52
People in China can't see any news like this.I was just now asking something about the unrest in Lhasa in a forum in China, my post was soon be deleted and the connection to the server was reset while the page was loading. And I still can't log to the server till now. Lots of people don't even know what is it like in Lhasa now and they can hardly see any news about it. Words like "Lhasa","LS","Xizang" and "XZ" has been completely blocked throughout the Internet in China!
译者的话:这人象是中国人，抱怨说中国人不能接收到拉萨的新闻，说网上诸如拉萨，西藏之类的词都被屏蔽。当然我们不能排除有外国人用中文在中国上网。这个实在没什么好翻的。
GlobalStrides333 wrote:March 16, 2008 08:34
In reply to Frank: I agree with you, however the Tibetans are simply frustrated with their "Autonomous region" being overwhelmingly occupied by Han Chinese. This is a common trend throughout the minority regions in China, and if the government keeps suggesting settlement of minority regions, there will be no diversity of culture in China's future.
对Frank：我同意你的观点，但藏人只是对于他们的“自治区”被及其多数的汉人所占感到不满。这是在中国少数民族地区普遍的现象。如果中国政府坚持鼓励向少数民族地区移民，那么将来中国就没有文化的多样性了。
Y.Zheng wrote:March 16, 2008 08:55
After reading Semicrazy's comment, I went and searched for Lhasa related news on chinese forums and news websites. To your disappointment, I actually managed to find related news on all the major Chinese news sites such as Chinadaily, Sina.com and wenxuecity.com. I also saw the Lhasa news on "CCTV1 7 o'clock news" on tv today. From my humble view, news on the Lhasa incident from Chinese medias are as objective as this article on Economist. Of course, one can find very biased and hostile comments from Chinese individual on Chinese forums, but that is only certain individuals opinion, which can not represent the Chinese authority.
I am a Chinese, and I am against supresson in Tibetans. However, I am strongly against violence, thus I find it hard to stand against the Chinese authorities action this time. Attacking shops and causing mayhem in cities is not the solution to anything, and the results will never be positive. (My humble opinion)
Lastly, I wish Semicrazy to please check the reliability of his/her sources before posting comments like "Words like "Lhasa","LS","Xizang" and "XZ" has been completely blocked throughout the Internet in China!", become such statement is totally untrue.
在读了Semicrazy的意见，我去中国的论坛和新闻网站搜索了有关拉萨的新闻。恐怕会使你失望了，我在所有主要的新闻网站，例如Chinadaily, Sina.com 和 wenxuecity.com都找到了相关新闻。我也在中央电视台的7点新闻中看到了拉萨的新闻。我的观点是中国新闻的公正性堪比这篇文章。当然你可以在中文网站上找到充满偏见和敌对情绪的意见，但是这只是某些个人的观点，不代表中国官方。
我是一个中国人，我反对对藏人的压迫。可是我非常反对暴力，因此这次事件我不能反对中国政府的行动。在城市中攻击商店和制造混乱不能解决任何问题，不能得到任何积极的结果（我认为）。
最后，我希望Semicrazy在发表意见前能够确认一下消息来源的可靠性，象“拉萨西藏之类的词都被屏蔽了”是完全不确的。
我真的干得很慢，希望河友们都能来帮忙。原版在此外链出处，不需注册。家园 很好的工作，发前三个人的回复表示支持：） path2004：我们能仅看文化与种族划分一个国家吗？果真如此，如果你听过最受欢迎的总统候选人的牧师的话，也许第一个该分裂的国家就是美国
（应该说的奥把马的牧师莱特，呵呵）宗教狂热是双刃剑，那些喇嘛的兴趣在于恢复他们失去的世俗权力。想想穆斯林原教主义（如基地和塔利班）是如何在西方作为对付前苏联的武器而扶植起来的。我在西藏佛教的内核中看到了同样的侵略性。
说的好啊
第一个反派：
Delancy wrote:
March 19, 2008 00:42
From what I know & read the Tibetans are fed up seeing the Chines immigrants getting the well paid jobs. An example of the unjustness is when the rail way was built the Tibetans only got the low paying jobs & the new imigrant Chianese the well paid jobs. One way to subjacate people is to disalow the practice of religion. Buddism is a way of life for Tibetans,meaning religion binds their culture together. Ironically many in China think highly of the Dalai Lama.
我的见闻是西藏人对中国移民拿走高收入的工作已经受够了。不公正的一个列子是在铁路工程中西藏人只有低收入工作而新移民好工作。（subjacate people is to disalow是什么意思啊？这家伙英文够可以的。）压制人民的（其中）一个方式是夺去实践宗教（的自由）。 我是大熊解释是One way to subjacate people is to disalow the practice of religion：宗教信仰是西藏的生活方式，这意味着宗教和他们的文化已经绑在一起了。具有讽刺意味的是，许多中国人对达赖评价很高。
"If Tibetans truly cleave to the Han path let them say so in an independent referendum."
dartmouthgirlie 出现了：
Would this really be in the interest of the Tibetan people? The literacy rate is only around 50% (and close to 0% prior to Chinese invasion/liberation). Can they realistically make informed decisions that are in their OWN interests rather than the interests of the government-in-exile (former aristocracy)?
I just found this article from an Australian publication that provides some insight into the Dalai and his government:
链接出处
Seems like a bold move from a journalist. Perhaps "free press" means more in Australia than in the US/UK
“如果西藏人确实忠于汉族式道路，那就让他们通过一次独立的全民投票表达出来”
这真是对西藏人民有利的吗？（他们）识字率只有50%（中国入侵/解放前接近0）。他们真的能根据自己的利益而不是沦亡政府（前贵族统治）的利益做决定吗？我刚从一家澳大利亚出版物中发现这篇论文，它提供一些对达赖和他的政府有洞察力的认识。
看起来象是一个新闻工作者的大胆举动。也许新闻自由在澳大利亚比在英美意味着更多东西
家园 楼主辛苦，花 前两天我看他们说着说着就在谁被洗脑的问题上纠缠个没完就没再看了，不过个人觉得economist 那两篇 “独家报道”跟他们的同行比起来算是中肯的了。
家园 愚公移山，一段一段来 现在已经有285个回复了
说不定我翻的还没有人家贴的快。
不过有些话也是车轱辘来回地说。seeityourself wrote:March 16, 2008 08:57
This report sheds some light on the clash between Tibetans and Hui Muslim Chinese. The reporter who by a strange miracle happens to be the only officially permitted media inside Tibet by the Beijing authorities has not explained why there exist a strong resentment for the Tibetans against the Hui Muslim. In Central Tibet before Chinese invaded Tibet in 1959, there were no Hui Muslims in Tibet. The only Hui Muslims if at all settled in any Tibetan area were found in the border regions of Gansu and Qinghai. But in the last few decades we have seen a large influx of Hui Chinese moving into TAR,and this has taken place as a part of the Beijing's greater design of marginalizing Tibetans and creating ethnic tension and keep a iron grip on the region. It looks like the fruit of this draconian scheme is finally getting paid.
By the way the Tibetans are not the only people who are terribly affected by this influx of Hui-Han migration. The other minorities including Uighurs in East Turkistan(Xinjiang), Mongolians and Manchurian are fighting their own battles against this forced and planned migration of Hui-Han Chinese by Beijing. Uighurs are muslims but they clearly identify Hui Chinese as separate as they have mostly got integrated with Han Chinese.
Tibetans have for centuries lived harmoniously with Tibetan Muslim who were allowed their own space of worship. Infact many of them fled Tibet and are currently living in India as Tibetan muslim refugees (what an irony right).
I am concerned about the Tibetans who are now arrested that counts to hundreds and what kind of treatment they would be subjected to. Its must be happening only China where you get rounded up and arrested for just raising some slogans. After all isn't that what really happened on the first day when the monks peacefully marched in the street. The carnage and rioting followed after the monks were treated harshly and violently on the first day of protest,Which the only offically allowed reporter in Tibet did not see.
Here is what I saw on the wall somewhere:
In my country,
Torture Hidden,
Venture forbidden.
These lines are definitely voices of Tibetans and all the suppressed people in Tibet and China.
这篇报道提到藏族和回族穆斯林的冲突。奇迹般的成为唯一被北京官方允许在西藏（报导）的记者，作者没有解释为什么藏人对回族穆斯林有这么强的不满。1959年中国人入侵以前，没有回族穆斯林生活在西藏，要说有也是在甘肃青海和西藏的边界。但是过去几十年间我们看到大批回民涌入，作为北京政府边缘化藏人，制造种族紧张和维持强力统治的政策的一部分。看起来这是这种极端政策造成的结果。
另外藏人不是唯一受回汉移民影响的，东土耳其斯坦（新疆）的维吾尔族，蒙古族和满族都在与北京政府强制的和计划的回汉移民作斗争。维吾尔族也是穆斯林，但他们与回族不同，回族已经基本上与汉族同化了。
几百年来，藏人与西藏的穆斯林和谐共处，西藏的穆斯林能够保有他们的信仰。实际上，很多人逃离了西藏，现在流亡印度（真是讽刺）。
我很担心那几百个被拘留的藏人，不知道他们将会受到怎样的对待。举举标语就被拘押，这样的事想必只会发生在中国。这不就是第一天喇嘛们在街上和平游行时发生的事吗？屠杀和暴乱是喇嘛们被粗暴对待的结果，而这个唯一的官方允许的记者没有看到。
这是我在某处墙上看见的：在我的国家，折磨被隐藏，冒险进取被禁止。这就是藏人和所有在西藏和中国受压迫的人的心声。
CHINACRANE wrote:March 16, 2008 09:23
Hi, I am a Chinese living in Beijng now. My friend and I are highly concerned about what is happening in Lhasa. Chinese people love peace and unity. I don't think the riot can resolve anything, but do harm to the ordinary people in Tebet. I feel so sorry. As far as I know, minority group in China enjoy many special favorable policies that the han majority can't enjoy. Culture diversity is critical to every country.
我是住在北京的中国人。我和我的朋友都很担心现在拉萨的局势。中国人民热爱和平和统一。我不认为暴乱能解决任何问题，只能损害西藏的普通人。我很遗憾。据我所知，少数民族在中国享有很多汉族没有的特殊政策。文化多样化对每个国家都很重要。
家园 花顶！ 
家园 del