主题：【纪事】看到山猫这一段，差点笑翻 -- 昔杨今雨

http://www.cchere.net/thread/503341#C503410

兄弟,你也太抬举北京市政府了，为何选了现代唢呐塔，是因为[GLOW=255,RED,3]北京[/GLOW]现代啊。要不你到上海去试试。我在景德镇看见的出租车全是北斗星，感觉南京倒是开放竞争，街上出租车啥牌子的都有，就是没有菲亚特。

还有一段

这段里面漏洞更多，美国前商务部长这话是说了，可是有多少依据还是要从法律上来看。

看这里：http://www.cchere.net/thread/503341#C504658

就是我全部照抄，商标，专利，商业秘密这些一条都没有犯，就是合法行为。两个人长得像，不该算是侵犯肖像权。就算是专利，也有专利有效的问题，美国的专利，韩国的专利没有在国内申报，批准，也不受国内法律的保护。

我不是说奇瑞一定没有猫腻，不过，商业社会的好处在于，允许在法律的范围内玩猫腻，玩得好，成大名得大利，玩砸了，大家认赌服输。

说这么多，只是觉得美国前商务部长的话结论吓人，论据不足。威言相向，是为不仁；随口乱说，是为不智。不过老外发言，尤其是对中国的事情，偏见往往很深，加上隔了个太平洋，迷雾重重，即使是在slashdot这样的网站上，一旦谈到中国，总是让我又可气，又可笑。

1、景德镇不代表中国。

上海出租车车型包括——

捷达柴油/汽油

富康

夏利

奔驰

上海大众桑塔纳

东风悦达起亚远舰

奇瑞东方之子

中华轿车

北京现代索纳塔

………………

2、话说回来，按照“爱用国货，身土不二”的原则，这北京，中国的首都的直辖政府，咋就不爱国呢？

理由和现实出现一系列巨大反差，恩，修正你的理论，还是去喊“你不爱国”“这个世界疯了”？

上海出租车兄弟我天天打，富康夏利之类早在4,5年前就绝迹江湖了，奔驰好像仅仅大众出租有个100来辆，就是看见空车招手人家也不停，据说都是被包了的，反正我一次都没有坐过。其它牌子的有一种SUV，国产品牌，红色车身，属于私人运营，大概一个区只有300辆左右。其它品牌的，我基本上没有见到过。桑塔纳一统天下。非常理解北京市政府的决定，，其它品牌不过是陪标，我想大家心里也都清楚，趁此机会，做个广告，毕竟全国都有出租车的市场。

爱不爱国，不是喊出来的，山猫兄弟对国产品牌狠铁不成钢，这个我也理解，不过一笔划掉国内汽车工业几十年的努力，奇瑞等中国企业数万人的心血就有点不必了，大家还是在努力的。

我对奇瑞还是抱有希望，就是觉得它出的车的名字大多不灵，瑞虎还不错，东方之子之类就有点往自己脸上贴金的意思。奇瑞这个名字也不灵，要不改改，叫“旗锐”

武汉是满街富康

不过一笔划掉国内汽车工业几十年的努力，

咱们说个近的吧：北京吉普，当年引进的切诺基是和国际同一水平的，一口气造了十多年，新车型依然欠奉；堂堂一个唯一的造吉普的专业厂家，在SUV热卖的这几年连年亏损；结果这两天正式摘牌，变成北京奔驰了。

“没有功劳，也有苦劳”，嘿嘿，没有功劳就要被淘汰的，这就是现实。

奇瑞等中国企业数万人的心血就有点不必了

也算一个典型案例，等QQ的侵权案结论出来再说吧，如果几万人的心血用来生产盗版，就没啥好说的了。

中国现在不是没钱，没有技术也可以买；假如没技术就去偷……嘿嘿，努力的方向假如是错误的，只能越陷越深；偷的方便，自主研发的路就彻底堵死了。

对国货的爱一定就是溺爱,国货好了就一定是寡头,国货领先了就一定有国外资本,哈哈,反正就是国货不是要用滴而是要打滴.

最后,干脆来个此国非彼国

挺好玩的说

天津一色的夏利，武汉全是富康，其他的沈阳，呼和浩特，哈尔滨啥的就比较杂了，基本啥厂的车都有

Jeep was introduced in China in late 80s or early 90s.

The original manufacture was American Manufacture Company. It was later acquired by Chrysler. Then the AMC management is all gone.

Chrysler is very hesitate in develop in China market. No technical development ever put in Beijing.

One the other side, there are some serious design problem in Jeep. I know someone who actually work in Jeep plant at the birthplace of Jeep: Toledo, Ohio.

He said, if the 大梁 does not fit, they will bend/hammer it to fit.

The largest Jeep dealer in the world even complain that he loss more money in service Jeep warranty then he make from Jeep sales.

北京吉普集团造的出切诺基，就证明美国人起码提供了生产技术。

十几年，还是造切诺基，没有新车型，就证明北京吉普集团根本无能。

That is the limitation of Intellectuall property.

Usually, those joint venture will certainly have legal clauses that limit one party develop new thing compete with the other.

In this case, the technical IP is the hand of AMC and later on Chrysler.

That is why you need to develop your own IP.

Chrysler had plan to gave up Beijing Jeep several years ago (around 97), when they also had plan to gave up the Jeep plant at Toledo, OHio. In that case, they are not willing to put any money into this line. Toledo gave Chrysler a lot of incentive and tax break, kept the Jeep plant, but lost a couple thousand jobs. Then Toledo government found out they were cheated by Chrysler. Both parties are in the court now.

If you check the market data, Jeep and Grand Cherokee together have a market share of 33% in SUV back to early 1990s. Now it only has 7%.

FYI, you can still find the same model Jeep brand new in US. Chrysler did not change the model either. The supposed replacement model called Liberty never break the ground.

1、中方控股

2、AMC and Chrysler阻止过北京吉普集团发展自己的新车型吗？

You have to check the original contract. Like Satana at Shanghai. Before 95, Satana did not have any permission to even change some screws.The controlling stock does not automatically guarantee you have the freedom to develop a new product by your own.

1) AMC and Chrysler did not provide financial support or techinical expertise for any R&D.

2) Beijing Jeep is run at 老式国有大企业。 The focus is on revenue or even production, not on profit.

3) The product sucks. The quality is terrible. The entry point for technical rennovation is bad. The Jeep in Toledo is coming out from 1940s streaming line. AMC brought the same technics to Beijing Jeep. What can you expect Beijing Jeep to learn?

4) Government is only view that as cash cow.When they did make some money, the profit went to tax, or expense, not for R&D or marketing.

I also know someone worked at Beijing Jeep production.

The manufacturing is rather inefficient. The supply chain sucks. The training and design is totally style (老式国有大企业). The production is almost like handmade. It is amazed to see it can actually survive more than 10 years. They should had died much earlier.

不管什么三大还是四大，他们怎么会有动力去搞自主创新？这些企业的负责人说到底都是国家干部，其任免并非企业行为。苗圩从东风卸任，转身就是武汉市委书记。企业不过是一个跳板，因此短期行为远远超过长期规划。自主研发是要钱的，更重要的，是有可能失败的！其收益又不是短期内能够体现的，在汽车销路还不错的情况下，谁会去冒这个险！这就造成企业效益越好，企业自主研发能力越弱的悖论。

这种企业日后必然死路一条，但是领导者换个地方可以继续做官，苦的是企业职工。企业职工也明白这个道理，所以有本事的能捞则捞，没本事的能混则混。

我和朋友聊天，都觉得汽车工业的希望不在这些国有合资企业上，而是民间企业承担中国汽车的未来。要不大家就是持币待购，企业效益差了，利润低了，自主改造降低成本反而会迫切，看起来就是这么可笑。

一是足够的技术储备，现实是发动机造不了，车载电子很落后，生产线上机器人应用很差劲，独立的车型设计能力也不够，说到底是人才缺乏；

二是自主研发的意愿，缺技术可以买，也可以自己花钱请人研发；但是如果存心仿制、抄袭，哪不如合资引进呢，起码合法。

水到渠成肯定比仓促上马强，现在条件还不具备。