主题:A国用国内法在B国抓了C国人。不是赤裸裸的霸权主义是什么 -- 友来有趣

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O A国用国内法在B国抓了C国人。不是赤裸裸的霸权主义是什么 22 友来有趣 字685 2018-12-10 00:00:23
O 流氓的逻辑本质就是谁力量大,谁说了算 1 任乘风01 字326 2018-12-10 00:54:04
O 说的对,你这个例子举得好!提供一个美国媒体发言 6 瀚海黄沙 字1196 2018-12-10 03:32:16
O 再给几个评论,我贴的都是中立一点的,恨华反华的都没贴 3 瀚海黄沙 字5293 2018-12-10 03:52:43
O 假设一个日本人在中国杀了人跑到美国 夜炎火 字133 2018-12-10 04:40:43
O 不懂法就别乱举例,贸易法是刑事犯罪吗?是世界刑警组织 28 瀚海黄沙 字2144 2018-12-10 04:58:18
O “世界秩序”其实就是西方集团,记住,人家是个集团 23 一哲 字472 2018-12-10 04:58:38
O ” A国用国内法在B国抓了C国人“这是您的原话 4 夜炎火 字364 2018-12-10 05:04:53
O 不是美国国内法,你找个中国法律禁止和伊朗贸易的? 5 瀚海黄沙 字84 2018-12-10 05:08:02
O 可行司法反制措施- 1 雨辰老人 字45 2018-12-10 05:14:31
O 给你普个法,看看国际法上的管辖权都是啥样的! 11 瀚海黄沙 字1624 2018-12-10 05:17:44
O 在本案中,孟行为直接针对的是汇丰,而且不是国际公认罪行! 20 瀚海黄沙 字372 2018-12-10 05:19:47
O 也可以提出引渡孟晚舟回中国,因为罪名既然是诈骗。 4 瀚海黄沙 字218 2018-12-10 05:22:03
O 这种胡来应该是美国国内政治争斗的激化与外延 5 夕曦 字864 2018-12-10 08:36:39
O 理性讨论远不如极端行为更有力量 nevermind 字67 2018-12-10 09:29:27
2018-12-10 00:00:23
主题:4380999
友来有趣
友来有趣`18671`/bbsIMG/face/0007.gif`70`2347`9205`79258`从二品:光禄大夫|镇军大将军`2007-07-20 10:02:39`0
A国用国内法在B国抓了C国人。不是赤裸裸的霸权主义是什么 22

孟晚舟的事件根本问题是:A国用国内法在B国抓了(在C国本土“违反”了A国国内法的)C国人。

如果这个逻辑能够对等成立,那世界还有秩序吗?那意味着中国可以因为马斯克在美国抽过大麻就派人把他出差时从东京抓到中国并判刑。可以因为特朗普在大西洋城开过赌场把他抓起来并起诉。沙特可以因为伊万卡在美国上街没戴面纱就把她抓到利雅得去坐牢!英国甚至可以因为你在美国开车时在路右侧“逆行”把你抓起来!

如果这个逻辑只能单向成立,美国做得别的国家都做不得,这不是赤裸裸的霸权主义是什么?


  • 本帖 8 回复
最后于2018-12-10 00:20:30改,共2次;
2018-12-10 00:00:23
2018-12-10 00:54:04
4381013 复 4380999
任乘风01任乘风01`110323`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`68`81`1626`从七品上:朝散郎|翊麾校尉`2018-11-15 19:53:29`0
流氓的逻辑本质就是谁力量大,谁说了算 1

其实说起来也不能像你这么比喻。

孟女士的公司进口了美国公司的产品,卖到了伊朗去才会被美国抓

,美国公司卖给孟女士的时候就应该申明了这些东西不能卖到伊朗,

否则就违法。 如果是孟女士自己公司生产的东西卖到美国去自然也

不违法。


2018-12-10 00:54:04
2018-12-10 03:32:16
4381052 复 4380999
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
说的对,你这个例子举得好!提供一个美国媒体发言 6

Prosecuting the Chinese Huawei executive is an idiotic way to hold China in check

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/12/08/prosecuting-chinese-huawei-executive-is-an-idiotic-way-hold-china-check/?from=timeline&isappinstalled=0&noredirect=on&utm_term=.5eb12b230e05

Even if the telecom company poses a national security threat, this is not the way to fight it.

American authorities asked Canada to arrest the chief financial officer of one of China’s largest technologies companies for alleged sanctions fraud and violations of U.S. export controls. Meng Wanzhou isn’t just a top leader at Huawei, which makes phones and other gadgets; she is also the daughter of the company’s founder and chairman, which makes her arrest somewhat like the Chinese arresting the daughter of Steve Jobs if she had helped run Apple. It would be an understatement to say that Beijing did not react well: It demanded her release and accused the U.S. government of violating the rights of a Chinese citizen.

看留言区才有意思,看来双方的民意对抗已经被挑起来了。始作俑者,这能全身而退?看TG的应对。

支持国家外交部副部长的严正声明!


  • 本帖 2 回复
2018-12-10 03:32:16
2018-12-10 03:52:43
4381060 复 4381052
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
再给几个评论,我贴的都是中立一点的,恨华反华的都没贴 3

yuhengkevindai

6 hours ago

First of all, China didn't arrest any senior officials of any airlines just because they refused to change the way they reference Taiwan. We ban their businesses. America did the same thing to Huawei. What is outrageous is that you guys actually arrested Meng. Also, Iran sanction violation doesn't justify arresting a CFO. HSBC, samsung, and many European companies also breached the sanction and all they received were fines. Last but not least, Iran sanction is American domestic law and America have no jurisdiction over Global Firms, especially when Meng is in Canada.

Eugene Daniell

5小时前

The question is, how far can we go in trying to force other countries to go along with our sanctions if they do not agree with them?

Zaylyn

11小时前

In 1995, President Clinton signed an executive order barring U.S. investment in Iran’s energy sector. To evade U.S. law, Halliburton (CEO = Dick Cheney) set up an offshore subsidiary that engaged in dealings with Iran. So why wasn't Dick Cheney arrested?

喜欢thumb_up5

peaceisbetter

11小时前

Koch industries and many other companies have done the same thing.

Fre Okin 10小时前

The reality is the previous Smokeless War was reasonably well managed and kept away from the public.

Now with Trump losing control, his underlings, aka 'eunuchs, little napoleons' pull a fast one on him.

US real enemies are the neocons inside the Beltway, more so than China.

The rise of China relative to US is inexorable. What is wrong with that? The problem with neocons is they want too much comfy zone, so when China announced Made In China 2025 initiative, US went berserk and use CFIUS to clamp down on Every 'sensitive' areas to choke off China's access to US high tech advantage.

BTW I read somewhere, 1/4 of those researchers are Chinese, so US actually Owed to Chinese Brains 1/4 of the so called IP theft. They come to US only because US have Better hardware and software for them to do research Here, not because US brains are inherently better.

Get used to it, China with more STEM graduates than US and 3X more population will inexorably rise and overtake US.

No need to be frightened. Just be like the British. Exit the superpower status Gracefully an stop acting like a Pest in Asia, self invite while those little countries cower under US economic strangulation threat.

peaceisbetter 12小时前

Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Nokia... and now Huawei is different?

All these companies have litigated license, patents etc... on and off for years. Settled in court often to the benefit of the lawyers mostly. Never has any country resorted to mafia style tactics of kidnapping an executive and holding them hostage for ransom as a political tool in modern times.

Trump and his fans thinks this is The Game of Thrones and the consequences of their games will bring folly to mankind.

marjonaxyz 14小时前

It is an idiotic move and a heavy-handed approach. No country would allow one of its business leaders to be arrested and humiliated like this on what sounds like trump-up charges over an internationally divisive issue such as unilaterally imposed sanctions by the US against Iran.

Trump may have just shot himself in the "mushroom"!

这个是给加拿大政府的评论

VetNAM

14小时前

Kudos to the Trudeau government…

For not interfering in a judicial process Not in reality, nor in appearance (A lesson for the present WUSPE in the WH)

This said The reason for the arrest is totally laughable and makes Canada look like a subordinate banana republic eager to please its irascible master.

The accusation: Fraud charges for defying the American Iranian embargo!?

We resent Russia for using Interpol arrest mandates to further its political feuds.

This stunt is in the exact same ball park. This is a perfect opportunity for Canada to push back on this blunt and senseless bullying, issued form a clearly blunt and bullying US administration. America deeply resents interference of other countries in its affairs. It stand to reason, not to inflict the same on other countries.

NOT the accusation: Huawei’s facilitating of Chinese spying in its networks. Is totally worth our concern. But, let’s admit in the process that The US government has been at it longer and much better than the Chinese. The NSA having the ability and unimpeded access to the bulk of all international communications. All we are left is that It’s OK for America to do it but not the Chinese. The same premise as the WMDs. It is GREAT for America to have lots, but criminal for others to have some!? If the USA has proof of Chinese/Huawei wrongdoing, then let them arrest and lay charges. Otherwise put up and shut up. Finally. The chairman’s daughter!? Really this is the best we could do. Make it personal on top of the already arbitrary and rogue approach of this administration. This, my friend, is the beginning of scary and out of control. Time for the Canadian government to interfere politically and diplomatically. If this is no less shocking then allowing CIA rendition flights over its territory. They can very well live with one we can very well endure very well the other.

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  • 本帖 1 回复
最后于2018-12-10 04:06:37改,共3次;
2018-12-10 03:52:43
2018-12-10 04:40:43
4381070 复 4380999
夜炎火夜炎火`16530`http://picture.cchere.com/0,0808/16530_13025507.jpg`70`1559`2437`25532`从四品下:中大夫|明威将军`2007-03-18 19:17:19`0
假设一个日本人在中国杀了人跑到美国

中国可不可以去美国抓人,或者说中国法庭能否要求美国引渡呢?

法律问题不要纯粹凭感性想当然。


  • 本帖 2 回复
2018-12-10 04:40:43
2018-12-10 04:58:18
4381078 复 4381070
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
不懂法就别乱举例,贸易法是刑事犯罪吗?是世界刑警组织 28

认可的国际犯罪和追捕的刑事犯吗?

你拿两国的贸易法贸易政策冲突,来类比杀人放火的刑事犯。您是和中国有仇,还是和孟家任家有仇?

在属人法和属地法冲突的时候,存在法律冲突的情况下,一般要以属人法为准,除非刑事犯罪和国际通缉的国际犯罪,以及不动产法。而加拿大在这里有没有属地法的管辖还是个问题呢!美国在这个引渡申请里,连国际法上的连接点都没有,纯粹是你说的拿所谓美国国家利益受损为理由要求引渡孟!这个理由其实可以任意引渡绝大多数人,只不过你是个nobody,美国不屑的理你。华为做大了,就这样管辖华为;任何一家中国公司甚至第三国公司做大了,威胁到美国公司市场份额了技术优势了,也可以管辖任何一家这样的公司!这不是流氓行为,这是什么?!这是法治精神?是市场竞争?别洗地了,没得打自己耳光!

国家管辖权的理论分类和管辖权原则

理论上国家的管辖权分为:

一,域外管辖和域内管辖,

二,对人管辖,对物管辖,对事的管辖,

三,立法管辖,司法管辖,行政管辖,

管辖权原则:属域管辖,属人管辖,保护管辖,普遍管辖

A.属地管辖权。以领土为对象对领土及资源管辖;以领土为范围,对领土内人、物、事管辖

B.属人管辖权。包括船舶、航空器、航天器等获得国籍的特定物

C. 保护性管辖权。

两个条件:①外国人在领土外行为所侵害的是该国或其公民的重大利益,构成该国刑法规定之罪行或规定应处一定刑罚以上的罪行。②该行为根据行为地法律同样构成应处刑罚的管辖权。

两种方式:①行为人进入该受害国境内被依法拘捕和管辖。②通过国家间对行为人的引渡实现受害国的管辖权。

D.普遍性管辖权。战争罪、破坏和平罪、违反人道罪、海盗罪

补充,还包括:灭绝种族,贩卖毒品,种族隔离,实施酷刑,劫持航空器等犯罪。


  • 本帖 1 回复
最后于2018-12-11 02:19:00改,共5次;
2018-12-10 04:58:18
2018-12-10 04:58:38
4381079 复 4380999
一哲
一哲`19304`https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/231136_20906603536_5545_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQnTuXBR2FImDFTLY5Gmr8_gHd4XBL7WjFMFpKkjG7jGR43hRA5XNLyinUDLZprjLBk&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=1aa1d4a272e88985822a0101dedd`70`1147`5348`43122`从九品上:文林郎|陪戎校尉`2007-09-07 03:34:25`0
“世界秩序”其实就是西方集团,记住,人家是个集团 23

平时所说的“国际社会”也是人家,他们的核心就是杨格鲁萨克森人的5个英语国家,美英加澳新,北约是他们的军事联盟

其实一直就没有真正国际过。最近西方经常引用的所谓“规则基础上的国际秩序”,规则从来都是他们制定的

所以跟国际接轨,其实就是跟西方接轨,接到后来,总会遇到难题,那就是是保持独立,还是继续接轨下去成为人家的马仔....


关键词(Tags): #西方集团通宝推:猪啊猪,
2018-12-10 04:58:38
2018-12-10 05:04:53
4381081 复 4381078
夜炎火夜炎火`16530`http://picture.cchere.com/0,0808/16530_13025507.jpg`70`1559`2437`25532`从四品下:中大夫|明威将军`2007-03-18 19:17:19`0
” A国用国内法在B国抓了C国人“这是您的原话 4

实际上不太确切,因为并没”用国内法抓人“。我不过是把您的ABC换成中美日举个例子罢了。结果您这儿又冒出什么贸易法,什么国际刑警认可,这些条件哪来的呀。而且这次美国本来用的就是欺诈这种刑事犯罪指控呀。

对个人人身攻击这种低劣手段您还是免了吧,多丢人。


  • 本帖 2 回复
通宝推:2313234454dfsd,
2018-12-10 05:04:53
2018-12-10 05:08:02
4381084 复 4381081
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
不是美国国内法,你找个中国法律禁止和伊朗贸易的? 5

作个美国人不需要那么得意,也不用那么抬不起头,不敢承认!


2018-12-10 05:08:02
可行司法反制措施- 1

中止承認長臂管轄國家主權豁免。


  • 本帖 1 回复
2018-12-10 05:14:31
2018-12-10 05:17:44
4381091 复 4381070
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
给你普个法,看看国际法上的管辖权都是啥样的! 11

国家管辖权的主要原则有属地管辖原则、属人管辖权原则、保护管辖原则和普遍管辖原则四种,其中属地管辖和属人管辖是主要的,保护性管辖和普遍性管辖时对传统国际法上国家管辖权的扩展。

1、属地管辖原则。国家对其领土范围内的一切人、物和事享有完全的和排他的管辖权,无论是本国人还是国人,除根据国际法上国家主权豁免和外交和领事特权和豁免享受豁免权的人外,一进入一国领土就立即处于该国属地管辖之下。属地管辖权是国家管辖的基础。

2、属人管辖原则。国家有权对一切具有本国国籍的人实行管辖,而不问其居住在国内或国外,是依据国籍的管辖。依据国籍管辖,国家可以对其所有国民实行管辖而不论其在何地。属人管辖权是辅助的。

3、保护管辖原则。国家以保护本国重大利益为基础对外国人在外国的犯罪行使管辖的权利国际主张对外国人在国外的犯罪行使刑事管辖权时,其罪行一般限于直接针对国家本身的犯罪和针对其国民的犯罪一般属于世界公认的犯罪行为。保护性管辖是国家属地管辖的例外。

4、普遍管辖原则。国家根据国际法对于某些特定的国际罪行,无论罪犯的国籍如何也不论其犯罪地与何处,实行刑事管辖的权利。这种管辖权的基础不是属地管辖原则,不是属人管辖原则,也不是属地管辖原则的主观和客观适用,而是基于国际和平与安全及全人类的利益的维护。


  • 本帖 2 回复
最后于2018-12-10 05:22:46改,共1次;
2018-12-10 05:17:44
2018-12-10 05:19:47
4381092 复 4381091
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
在本案中,孟行为直接针对的是汇丰,而且不是国际公认罪行! 20

汇丰不是美资银行!根本就不适用保护原则管辖!更无干加拿大的屁事!

中国公司中国人卖了130套HP打印机给伊朗手机商家,是美国重大利益?撑死算违反了和HP的合同约定。起诉SKYCOM啊,你合同违约就刑事犯罪了,就敢跨国抓人???这是黑社会做派!

你还要继续给美国洗地吗?


  • 本帖 1 回复
最后于2018-12-10 10:10:31改,共2次;
2018-12-10 05:19:47
2018-12-10 05:22:03
4381093 复 4381088
瀚海黄沙瀚海黄沙`70387`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`9246`3894`65152`正五品上:中散大夫|定远将军`2011-03-07 06:11:00`0
也可以提出引渡孟晚舟回中国,因为罪名既然是诈骗。 4

那作为汇丰一个香港based的英资银行,既然汇丰被处罚了,我们也可以认为中国的国家利益受损了。而且孟还是中国人,中国寻求将孟引渡回香港,法理上也说的通!


2018-12-10 05:22:03
2018-12-10 08:36:39
4381145 复 4381052
夕曦夕曦`7624`/bbsIMG/face/0000.gif`70`661`9949`76930`正三品:金紫光禄大夫|冠军大将军`2005-07-26 09:53:53`0
这种胡来应该是美国国内政治争斗的激化与外延 5

孟的案件是“纽约东区联邦法院于8月22日发布了对孟晚舟的逮捕令。11月30日,在得知孟晚舟将在温哥华转机从香港前往墨西哥的消息后,加拿大一名法官对她发出了逮捕令”。

有意思的是:“美国总统特朗普签署行政命令限制穆斯林国家移民和难民入境引发混乱,纽约一所联邦法院连夜紧急颁令暂缓执行。”这个纽约法院也是纽约东区联邦法院,而且好像这个法院反特朗普还不只一件事,应该是反特的急先锋。

再看孟被抓的时间,正是习和特在G20会晤的时间。用特朗普废除伊核协议、再次制裁伊朗的借口,攻击中国,以子之矛攻子之盾。美国国内的政争已经激化到至国际法与国际关系于不顾的地步了。

加拿大这次又被拿来当枪使了。


2018-12-10 08:36:39
4381156 复 4381060
nevermind
理性讨论远不如极端行为更有力量

辅以胡萝卜/大棒, 沉默无组织的大多数早晚被裹挟.


2018-12-10 09:29:27
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