主题：wootz钢（大马士革钢）的一些资料，想看的来看看。 -- 磨刀石

Wootz应该是由一种来自印度南部的铁矿石所造。本来若这种矿石被弄干了的话，是不可以再用来造这种刀了，但是不久有人就找出了如何去把它混合在铁中造成这种钢的方法了。

相关帖子的编辑如下：

Wootz or mechanical damascus

Both varieties have existed in oriental arms.

Which one is your favorite? Why? Advantages disadvantages?

Regards,

Manoucher

Re: Wootz or mechanical damascus

Both are bueatiful.

Since modern tool mono steels are pretty much equivalent to mechanical damascus, and maybe even wootz (no heresy intended), there isn't much to compare there.. forge welded or crucible formed are far more bueatiful.

However, I think that Wootz may have had superior properties to mechanical damascus, due to the nature of it's creation.

This article was recently posted to the general forum by John McKelvy, I think:

JOM: The role of impurities in ancient damacus steel blades.

Perhaps this can help explain the differences, and why one might be superior to the other.. It's fairly technical, though.. I'd summarize, but I'm still trying to get my head to wrap around it.

josh

quote:

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Originally posted by Manoucher M.

Both varieties have existed in oriental arms.

Which one is your favorite? Why? Advantages disadvantages?

Regards,

Manoucher

Wootz Vs. Mechanical steel

Gentlemen

I think this is a very important and intriguing issue. I will therefore stick it for a while to the top of the forum threads.

I encourage forumists to express opinions regarding Wootz vs. Pattern Welded steel with regard to:

Functionality: Better combination of hardness and flexibility

Aesthetic: Emphasizing the steel pattern for aesthetic purposes

Rarity: Why pattern welded is still being forged today and Wootz technology is lost?

Or any other related matter.

Just as a reminder:

Pattern Welded Steel (also known as ?mechanical steel?and ?laminated steel?, is constructed from two or more different steel ingots forge welded and mechanically treated by twisting, punching and/or other mechanical processes.

Wootz Steel (Also known as ?watered steel?or ?true Damascus? starts from ONE homogenous crucible steel ingot where by through a certain forge process, separation of areas of high carbon from low carbon steel is achieved.

With your permission I will express my opinion at the end.

Looking forward to hear you.

"Wootz Steel (Also known as ?watered steel?or ?true Damascus? starts from ONE homogenous crucible steel ingot where by through a certain forge process, separation of areas of high carbon from low carbon steel is achieved."

I am not sure I agree with this definition completely. I was under the impression that the crucible steel ingot was created using a low heat process that upon hardening caused the different areas of pearlite and cementite to form and that the forging process was also performed at low heat in order not to disrupt this. Thus the "watering" effect would be visible in the ingot as well? during forging was when the pattern manipulation was performed, but not when the seperation occured?

Maybe someone with more knowledge than me can clarify this? And thanks for making this one a "sticky", it is a fascinating subject.

Joel

Re: Wootz Vs. Mechanical steel

quote:

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Originally posted by Artzi Yarom

Just as a reminder:

Pattern Welded Steel (also known as ?mechanical steel?and ?laminated steel?, is constructed from two or more different steel ingots forge welded and mechanically treated by twisting, punching and/or other mechanical processes.

Wootz Steel (Also known as ?watered steel?or ?true Damascus? starts from ONE homogenous crucible steel ingot where by through a certain forge process, separation of areas of high carbon from low carbon steel is achieved.

With your permission I will express my opinion at the end.

Looking forward to hear you.

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Artzi and everyone,

The only thing that comes to mind is that with pattern welding you actually get to control the pattern. An example of this is the chevron pattern found on some historical shamshir.

Now as good as Wootz is, Ric Furrer pointed out that there are some material limitations, though I don't remember what they are. I'll see if I can get him to post his thoughts on this forum.

With pattern welded steels, you can achieve a slightly similar effect if you weld and alternate high and low carbon steels throught the blade body. But that all depends on what steels they used or chose historically. In Viking cultures, high carbon steel was precious and the pattern welding and twisting process was necessary to not have the swords split apart. In a sense, the pattern is a byproduct of a functionality objective. Bu when you see chevron-pattern shamshir, you got to think that they had it down as an art form because a chevron pattern is very difficult to do, especially get it so perfect for a sword-length blade.

__________________

Adrian

Re: Re: Wootz Vs. Mechanical steel

It is possible to create deliberate patterns in wootz blades:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JO...9.fig.6a.lg.gif

I wonder how much wootz would distort if used it in a mechanical damascus... Might not even mater. A conjunction of the two forms could be exquisite.

josh

Wootz Vs. Mechanical Steel

Joel,

I am also not sure if the separation of the different areas of pearlite and cementite are created in the original ingot or during the forging process. I hope Adrian can bring Ric Furrer to post here, I am sure he will clarify this point.

Adam,

I understand that control of the pattern in wootz is quite limited but Ric can clarify this as well.

Josh.

To the best of my knowledge, if you expose wootz to temperatures required for forge welding the wootz pattern will disappear

Why was wootz technology lost. I wanted to present two possibilities. One could be that mass produced steel drove wootz "out of business" so to speak. I am sure it would have become quite expensive in those days to buy a wootz blade with all the hand forged work and extreme details to produce. Mass produced blades would have been simpler to make and would have met more demand. Therefore perhaps apprenticeship declined sharply with the advent of more mass produced steel and with that decline in apprenticeship, fewer and fewer people learned about the secrets of forging wootz.

I also read somewhere and I apologize for not having the reference that the best wootz that combined both functionality with aesthetics probably originated from wootz cakes that were exported from India. I recall in that particular article that perhaps there was a load that was mined for many centuries, made into wootz cakes and shipped around to be finished into swords and knives. It was theorized that this mine contained certain mineral qualities not found in other iron ores and this helped produce the higher carbon content needed for high quality wootz. Certainly, the forging process was important to bring out the finest patterns. Perhaps these iron mines were emptied and this particular ore was no longer available. Other iron ores were used and perhaps forged in the same manner, but just did not yield the fine patterns that are typically found on the 17th century and earlier blades.

For me, the lore of wootz steel and its ability to cut, its resiliency and throw on its pure artistic beauty, make it somewhat mystical and that is what is really intriguing. I think some pattern welded steels can reveal very nice patterns, especially twist core pattern welds, but they just don't carry that same legend.

Re: Wootz Vs. Mechanical Steel

Do you have a guess at what temperature this would happen?

I wonder, because the difference between heat treating temperature and forge welding temperature is about 800 degree's F..

josh

quote:

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Originally posted by Artzi Yarom

Josh.

To the best of my knowledge, if you expose wootz to temperatures required for forge welding the wootz pattern will disappear.

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wootz

Wootz is an ancient steel most likely developed in India around 200 A.D.; some say it goes back further, but there is limited research in this area. The material is a combination of iron, carbon and glass placed in a clay crucible and fired till it goes molten (thought there are a few other manufacturing methods in history). The iron will gather carbon from the charcoal and become steel and the glass will melt and act as a flux which will chemically bond with the impurities in the iron and remove them.

The molten steel is allowed to cool and the resulting solidified ingot is then removed from the crucible ( the crucible is broken). The ingot, ranging from 1/2 to four pounds, is then forged into a tool -- usually a blade. The ingot is difficult to forge and is often broken in the process which further adds to the mystery of the steel.

The steel itself usually has between 1 and 2% carbon, though there are a few examples of lower carbon contents in history. The main appeal is that the finished blade has a surface pattern. I call this pattern "salt and pepper" in appearance, but the Persian poets have likened it to wind rippling across a pond or tracks of ants. Basically the pattern results from the constituent elements nucleating out into two distinct formations -- carbides and pearlite. The carbides are white and the pearlite matrix is darker. Other structures can be formed, but historically these are the two main ones. The overall effect is that of "diamonds in pudding" (my quote) where the diamonds (carbides) do the cutting and the pudding (pearlite) acts as the matrix which supports the carbides. What makes this interesting is that the carbides form groupings which are visible with the naked eye -- much like pictures in the old newspapers. The photos in the newspaper are actually made up of tiny dots (like the individual carbides), but since they can be grouped together closely they appear to be continuous lines and shapes. This is why we can see the carbides in the wootz -- they are groupings of the tiny individual carbides into alternating "cluster sheets" of carbides and pearlite. These sheets can be further manipulated to form gross patterns like the famed "kirk narduban" or Muhammad's ladder.

What this means in function is that the carbides wear very slowly and the matrix wears faster so there is a definite saw tooth action. The wootz will chew its way through material. It therefore is very good for cutting flesh (its intended target), but not so good in cutting other things. It would make a poor wood planer blade for instance because it would leave tiny grooves in the wood rather than take a clean shaving. Very few people understand what the best uses for this material is and therefore they think that all of the legends are true and wish to think of wootz as the best all around cutting tool.

I will say that it seems to cut meat better than anything I have tried before and when you consider the historical use for the material I believe that the ancients found the same to be true. It is not a "perfect material", but it is still very mysterious. I apologies to those who wish to believe all the wonderful myths surrounding the material. I struggled for years with these myths and separating fact from fiction is one of my personal struggles with steel.

I began my study of wootz over a decade ago. What began with a few simple questions has grown over the years into several hundred very specific questions and every new discovery leads to another layer of detail requiring further investigation. Its is a wonderful challenge and my respect for the ancient craftsmen has grown with every new ingot I make.

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

__________________

Re: wootz

Richard,

Very very good explanation, thank you. I have one problem with wootz was meant to cut flesh, please note that Persians and Indian wore mail and above that they used steel shields and steel arm and leg protection which were either of wootz or mechanical damascus steel.

My problem with the statements "Swords were meant to cut flesh and bone" is that warriors were not fighting naked but protected, and we should never forget that. I am sure that wootz could even cut through armor, and was a devastating steel, that is what all crusaders were afraid of.

Regards,

Manoucher

Re: Re: wootz

My problem with the statements "Swords were meant to cut flesh and bone" is that warriors were not fighting naked but protected, and we should never forget that. I am sure that wootz could even cut through armor, and was a devastating steel, that is what all crusaders were afraid of.

Regards,

Manoucher [/B][/QUOTE]

I have seen many armor piercing blades which have had non wootz tips welded on. It is my assumption (as well as a few others) that the wootz would not have performed well for this act and that the tips were made on the original blade or welded on as a repair. Wootz is not just one chemistry and the quality varied greatly from piece to piece -- this should be kept in mind as well.

I think that most mail armor was iron and a thick steel blade used with intent should make a cut in or pierce through it.

__________________

How prevelant was chain mail and other armor? My impression was that only the core group, the leaders guards, the wealthy, and others wore such and the rest had to make do with quilted cloth and leather for protection. It seems wootz would do extremely well ripping through these materials. Even a coat of plates would leave some areas uncovered.

Joel

I heard of this theory, however, note that if you want to make a good sword, you make sure that it cuts or damage armor, since if it can cut armor it can easily cut cloth, leather, bone or flesh. Swords are weapons, period and they are tougher, much tougher than we collectors assume.

Regards,

Manoucher

quote:

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Originally posted by Manoucher M.

I heard of this theory, however, note that if you want to make a good sword, you make sure that it cuts or damage armor, since if it can cut armor it can easily cut cloth, leather, bone or flesh. Swords are weapons, period and they are tougher, much tougher than we collectors assume.

Regards,

Manoucher

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The purpose of armor was to protect the one wearing it. If the armor of the day could easily be damaged by the weapons of the day then it would not have been doing its job.

I have cut with the wootz blades before and though they do perform well, they still have limits. as all materials do.

Are you saying that a good sword would go right through a breastplate or cut a helmet in two? I think we need to speak of what a good cut into armor is before we can say if a sword could do such a cut. I think the reason for heavy "mass" weapons was to pick up where the sword has left off as far as damage done to armor. If a sword could do all that was needed then the katar and mace weapons would not have come into being.

Also cloth is rather good at preventing a deep cut of a sword. I suggest you put several layers of cloth over a moving support and give it a go. Now put a coat of chain mail over that and try it again.

The game of killing is not as easy as may be first thought; especially when the other person does not wish to be killed (is blocking and moving).

The helmet cut has been demonstrated by old and new Japanese swords against old and new helmets and the cuts are far less damaging than most think. (Yoshindo Yoshihara's blade cutting an old Japanese helmet in the late 90's and Louie Mill's sword as swung by Larry Klahm cutting a WWII American Helmet and a 55 gallon oil drum. I also heard of such a demo done with a blade made by Paul Champlain)

__________________

I see your points Richard, and I agree that killing is not as easy as many people think, just look at non-arm combat, ultimate fighters can take a hell of punishment since they are trained.

However, they are many many swords around and armor as well, just go to European museums and count the number of armors, hundres and hundres and thousands of them, just count the number of armor in museums in London and Paris, unbelievable, they used to wear more armor, definitely.

The second factor is that people did not care if they swords were broken, if my life is in danger I do not even mind to edge parry or do whatever is necessary to protects my life, banging it against armor or whatsoever!!!!

My statement is that swords are often underestimated and when I hear the statement "swords were only meant to cut flesh and bone" well I just go like . A manufacturer of sword even went so far recently by saying that swords were only meant to cut flesh and not bone!!!!!!!!! As if people used to shed their bones before entering fights!!!!

Richard I see your points, techniques do not help only, in a full-contact fight sometime you have to damage your shin in a low kick strike to do damage to your opponent, I remember an encounter between a technician who did not have a clue about ful-contact and a Thai boxer, the latter just devastated him!! I mean in an encounter sometimes you just got to be tough and go for it . . . As you said killing is not as easy . . .

Regards,

Manoucher

Regarding swords, armour, wootz and mechanical damascus...

...In the first place, there's something almost mystical about wootz. I have one wootz piece in my collection, and I can't reproduce it- that alone makes it very special. Pattern-welded steel I can do.

In rgds to swords and armour- swords historically were not very damaging against plate armour.Even the Japanese swords test-cut against Japanese helmets had such shallow cuts- this against stationary targets!- that although the helmet might be ruined or at least need serious repair, they would not have gone through to the skull beneath.

There were some kinds of sword that were designed to perform against plate armour- most notably thrusting estocs and type XVIII swords. However, and this is important- these swords had edge geometries that would not make them very good cutters, especially against "soft" targets.

It's quite apparent that fighters in the days of yore relied not on one weapon, but several. From horseback a lance, or against horsemen a pike or halberd. For close-in fighting against armoured opponents, a stiff thrusting sword, or war-hammer, or mace, or battleaxe. The conventional cutting sword against lightly armoured foes, where speed was very important. Because historically, on battlefields everywhere, you had both heavilly armoured and lightly armoured troops with their own speciallities. This applied as much in Moghul India (which had some incredible all-steel maces, btw) as in Medieval France.

Unusual Wootz Blade

I posted this one on the Ethnographic Edges Weapons Forum and I thought this will also fit this thread:

I recently examined this beautiful and unusual Khayber Sword:

The blade is 25 inches long, slightly double curving with a pronounced T spine (Looking on this Yatagan shape blade, one can understand why the Khayber sword is also known as Salwar Yatagan). The grips are elephant ivory, which indicate a possible Indian origin.

The interesting part of this sword is the blade construction. After cleaning and etching the blade I found to my great surprise that one face of the blade show a beautiful wootz pattern where the other face show no pattern at all. Below are close-ups of both faces of the blade:

（中间的一些贴图由于时间过久，已经失效）

How was it made so?? Why?? I really have no clue

Re: Unusual Wootz Blade

Some possibilities:

The blade is two pieces -- one side wootz the other a single steel. This however is unlikely.

Another explanation may be that the outer surface of the ingot was not removed when the blade was finished. This is also unlikely as there would be some area where the pattern would show through. The decarborized layer is never very thick.

Could you send a photo of the spine of the sword so I can see the seam that the top of the ingot usually leaves?

__________________

Re: Unusual Wootz Blade

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Artzi Yarom

I posted this one on the Ethnographic Edges Weapons Forum and I thought this will also fit this thread:

I recently examined this beautiful and unusual Khayber Sword:

The blade is 25 inches long, slightly double curving with a pronounced T spine (Looking on this Yatagan shape blade, one can understand why the Khayber sword is also known as Salwar Yatagan). The grips are elephant ivory, which indicate a possible Indian origin.

The interesting part of this sword is the blade construction. After cleaning and etching the blade I found to my great surprise that one face of the blade show a beautiful wootz pattern where the other face show no pattern at all. Below are close-ups of both faces of the blade:

图片链接失效

How was it made so?? Why?? I really have no clue

It might causeof polish. Try to polish the no-pattern side to very fine - # 4000-5000, then etch it. It should be ok. One of my beautiful damascus (not wootz) bought from Artzi (thanks Artzi, I like it very much), it is with nice pattern first time, after rough polish the pattern gone, but after a professional polish to mirror surface, the pattern comes out again and more beautiful. I do not know how to post the picture and make a link to our Islam Weapon Forum, sorry it is in Chinese but you can still see the pictures of the damascus pattern after polish. The same thing happened with one of our wootz blade before, but we also brought the pattern out with traditional polishing (30 hours)

http://www.chinesearms.com/cgi-bin/...=4&topic=21

Regards

Bonnie

South China

Re: Re: Unusual Wootz Blade

Artzi,

From the eyes of our polisher - Lisa's brother, he said he can "see" the hidden pattern on the blade from the picture. He said one of the reason is that the current cleaning or polish is too rough. When the polish make the scratch mark much fine then the metal combination line, the pattern will be brough out. We are not sure, just for you reference.

Bonnie

Wootz pattern

...In Istanbul I picked up a nice Wootz Jambiya. The surface was badly stained in a few places. I was able to clean the area and rubbed to 600 grit, nothing spectacular, and a very bried rub with dilute ferric chloride brought out the pattern almost instantly. I'm not sure what the reason the kyber knife is not etching on one side, unless it is of a two-part construction, and as I understand it bringing the steel to a welding heat and working it is not possible with wootz, or at the least would destroy the particular crystalline pattern.

A post by Al Maasey

The following message was sent to me by my dear friend Al Massey. With his permission I will post it here:

Originally written by Al Massey

"I think there are legends surrounding Wootz steel in the Western world. Being in contact with it so long, I think the Persians have a much more realistic view of that steel- they admire it's beauty, but I think they would admire the toughness of simpler carbon steel blades just as much. From your interviews, it seems utility is a prime concern of the swordsmith there as it is here.

Now, quite a few of the legends are myths passed on by the Europeans who came into contact with it. Some wootz blades were traded in export, and some wootz cakes were sold to be made into blades.

Now, here's where it gets interesting. First of all, Wootz blades were good cutters, but the sellers of these blades to Europeans would also very likely exaggerate stories of the cutting ability- here's where you get things like a hair falling on the sword would be cut, and things like steel helmets being sliced in to by a draw-cut. These are stories that your ancestors would have laughed at, being as I said familiar with the steel and its good and bad points. But my ancestors, the Norman/Frankish soldiers, would have believed every story they would have been told. They had never seen a steel of this particular beauty before, nor steel which could hold such a fine edge, and they would have, being storytellers themselves, as soldiers often are, not only passed on the stories about the wootz but considerably added to them.

Cakes of wootz which were worked by the European smiths crumbled on the anvil. We now know that the reason for this was the very high carbon content. European smiths were used to working iron and steel with a carbon content much lower, and worked it quite hot- at an orange yellow or yellow heat. Wootz steel, which has a carbon content of as high as nearly 2 percent (spring steel has only .6 per cent, and most tool steel just 1) is almost molten at those temperatures. Any contact with the air blast at that heat, because of the very high carbon level, would cause it tostart burning and ruin the steel- I've done this accidentally in a coal forge with high carbon steel- and assuming it wasn't destroyed, trying to work it at that heat would cause it to crumble on the anvil. No smith likes to think he's incompetant, so they made up stories about strange magics being used, or practices such as quenching blades in live slaves, to explain why they could not work it. (Wootz cakes need to be forged at a much lower temperature.) Again, your ancestors would have laughed the stories to scorn- mine believed them in many cases.

And these stories just got passed down, growing greater and greater in the telling, till there were indeed many fallacies believed about the wootz. (We also have many of the same myths about Japanese swords- in my opinion they are no superior and in some cases inferior to many blades produced in the Middle East)

I've seen and handled beautiful wootz blades myself. The true magic of wootz lies in the smiths abilities to produce, without modern means of measuring and timing things, a crucible steel which was remarkably consistent in quality which because of the very fine structure held a superior edge without the blade needing to be hardened to the point of brittleness. And not only were they able to make this very difficult to work material, they were able to work it without spoiling it, forge it into fine blades, and do incredible things in the way of making multiple grooves and ribs in the blades, doing incredibly complex engraving work, and beautiful inlay work on this very difficult material. These people were giants, true masters of the craft! Myths and legends made up by superstitious and credulous people do not do them credit. The living blades made by these masters hundreds of years ago which most of todays smiths , despite our "knowledge", our powered equipment, our variety of materials available can only see and despair of recreating- that is the truest compliment these men, who have surely passed all need for any ego boosting, can be given."

The words above are the statements by a gentleman such as Al.

Regards,

Manoucher

Re: A post by Al Maasey

Hello All,

I will pass no judgement either way, but this information was posted a year ago. I have read the Al-Kindi and Al-Biruni texts in English translations and have found other such contemporory stories. The end result is that steel is steel and some have interesting properties BUT, since all of these blades would vary from one to the next in both material and heat treatment I fear that general terms such as "better" or "best" are not useful.

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

Subject: European blades etc

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:55:54 +0000

From: "G. S. Murray Threipland"

...

Some of the best knowledge we have of the Vikings comes down to us from the

writings of Arab scholars, the best known of whom is Ibn Fadlan, (fl. AD

920)who journeyed with a group of Vikings (he referred to them as 'Rus", as

did other Arab scholars) who described the armaments thus:-

"Every Northman carries an axe, a dagger, and a sword, and without these

weapons they are never seen. Their swords are broad, with wavy lines,

and of Frankish make."

The wavy lines refer to the pattern welding, and echoes references to swords

in Beowulf, such as "serpent patterned blade". Also in Beowulf swords are

referred to as "Battle Ray", and "Helmet Splitter".

Al-Biruni (973-1051 AD) goes into great depth about sword manufacture, both

European and Middle Eastern. He praises the "wonderful blades of the Indian

smiths, with their rich patterns...." and then goes on to note that "the Rus

have found another way of producing patterns, since they find that Oriental

steel cannot withstand the cold of their winters...." He goes on to state

that the patterns on these swords are deliberately made.

Al-Kindi (c 9th Century AD) and the anonymous author of the 11th century

Persian geography 'Hudad al-Alem' , both describe pattern welding in great

detail, in quite poetic terms which I won't go into here.

Comments on the quality:-

Ibn Miskawaih (died c 1043 AD) records that after the waning of Scandinavian

power in one district :-

"....the Moslems disturbed their graves and brought out a number of swords,

which are in great demand to this day for their sharpness and excellence".

Finally Nasireddin al-Tusi (can't remember dates offhand) describes the

smuggling of Frankish swords to the East, the import of which was illegal at

the time. He said the going rate was 1000 Egyptian dinars. He describes

the swords as made of soft iron, but so sharp that iron cannot resist their

stroke, and so pliable that they can be bent like paper.

It is quite clear that the European swords of the time were of good quality,

although the various Nordic sagas also describe swords that fall short of

expectations. This happened in Japan also. There were swords made that

were good bad and indifferent.

Gavin.

G. S. Murray Threipland.

Treasurer, British Kendo Association

__________________

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin

http://doorcountyforgeworks.com/

I will agree...

...there were excellent blades made all over the world, as well as poor blades made of wootz. In one of his talks with Iranian smiths Manoucher is told as much.

I think it a shame, though, that the fine old blades of the Merovingian and later period were not better preserved, at least some of them. I can see blades which here and there show traces of the excellence of their patterning, but only very rarely. Even with wootz blades, in spite of the long period of time of their manufacture (2000 years or more!) the surviving examples are predominantly later period, Abbasid dysnasty and later according to Figiel.

One cannot, however, deny the incredible mastery shown of the medium of steel in so many of these fine Wootz blades. I do not say that wootz is a perfect steel- even the persons making it knew it's limitations, as I pointed out. But it is a truly beautiful material.

Norse "soft iron" swords...

...I would conjecture that the iron in question was high in phosphorus and other elements which lend to work-hardening to a high degree. As soft iron is not really heat-treatable, though it can be case hardened, it's quite possible the blades were extensively cold worked. That this was done to harden and sharpen iron tools for centuries is beyond dispute, and in Oakeshott's records there is an article on a sword which showed considerable cold-working.

Re: I will agree...

quote:

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Originally posted by Al Massey

...there were excellent blades made all over the world, as well as poor blades made of wootz. In one of his talks with Iranian smiths Manoucher is told as much.

I think it a shame, though, that the fine old blades of the Merovingian and later period were not better preserved, at least some of them. I can see blades which here and there show traces of the excellence of their patterning, but only very rarely. Even with wootz blades, in spite of the long period of time of their manufacture (2000 years or more!) the surviving examples are predominantly later period, Abbasid dysnasty and later according to Figiel.

One cannot, however, deny the incredible mastery shown of the medium of steel in so many of these fine Wootz blades. I do not say that wootz is a perfect steel- even the persons making it knew it's limitations, as I pointed out. But it is a truly beautiful material.

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I handlede ancient wootz blades in Iran which made my heart stop, Al, they were true beauties a symbol of the mastery of Iranian craftmen.

Regards,

Manoucher

Re: Re: A post by Al Maasey

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Furrer

[B]Hello All,

I will pass no judgement either way, but this information was posted a year ago. I have read the Al-Kindi and Al-Biruni texts in English translations and have found other such contemporory stories. The end result is that steel is steel and some have interesting properties BUT, since all of these blades would vary from one to the next in both material and heat treatment I fear that general terms such as "better" or "best" are not useful.

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

Richard,

I would love to see newly made wootz blades by you. Is it possible that you post some pics of your work here? This way we can compare the patterns. Thank you my friend.

REgards,

Manoucher

My web site

Hello All,

My web site is being created by Adrian Ko -- the Editor of the SwordForum and should look good when finished.

I will have many photos of the things I make and some info on how they are made.

As for now Adrian has set up this page of detailed photos of a wootz kard (my first wootz piece) and a wootz ingot I made. The patterns I am creating in the wootz now are a bit more defined than what is seen on the kard. This piece was made some two years ago.

http://immie.com/ricfurrer/

Re: My web site

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Richard Furrer

Hello All,

My web site is being created by Adrian Ko -- the Editor of the SwordForum and should look good when finished.

I will have many photos of the things I make and some info on how they are made.

As for now Adrian has set up this page of detailed photos of a wootz kard (my first wootz piece) and a wootz ingot I made. The patterns I am creating in the wootz now are a bit more defined than what is seen on the kard. This piece was made some two years ago.

http://immie.com/ricfurrer/

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How would you classify the pattern on your blades Richard? Sham? Kar Khorasan? Kirk Nardeban? Rose? Double Kirk? Something else? Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Manoucher

Re: Re: My web site

quote:

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Originally posted by Manoucher M.

How would you classify the pattern on your blades Richard? Sham? Kar Khorasan? Kirk Nardeban? Rose? Double Kirk? Something else? Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Manoucher

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I suppose that depends upon what it is the client wants. The only "pattern" I have not been able to creat is the wide gap Perian patten of the finest blades. To my knowledge no body has been able to do that pattern. The Rose and double kirk are surface manipulations. I have a shamshir with a kirk rose pattern that is waiting for a handle and I have a photo of a bowie knife I made with a double kirk pattern.

The etchants I have used have not really brought out the pattern well, but am still working on the best solution to use.

Richard

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wootz vs pattern welded

Greetings

i would like to appologize in advance for my unfluent english.

i would like to brighten a few points that have been presented here.

before i begin i want to introduce myself since i don't usually post on this specific forum.

my name is shahar and i am a sword collector and a materials engineer , some time ago i gave a seminar on the stracture and mehcanical properties of ancient damascus blades (wootz).

i did quite a through research on the subject and id'e like to present here a few things i have learned.

the damascus pattern (wootz) appear due to the presence of certain and specific impuruties , impurities that stabilze the carbid formation (cementit) , such as : Vanadium , Molibdenum , Cromium , Manganese and Niobium.

while to metal cools down (slowly) ferite particles start to grow in a dendritic shape (streight lines) ! , due to the presence of the impuruties cementit start to grow as well in the inter dendritic spacings (the places the ferite hasn't reach yet) , when the metal finish the cooloing down procsess the macro stracture appear like bands of ferite and cementit , and by forging the blade in an angle (depends on the bladesmith) to the bands , it is possible to manufacture all the patterns we know (rose , ladder , etc...).

the bands do not appear right away , the blademsith needs to perform a few thermal cycles (6-7) in order to let the cementit grow so it would be visible to the naked eye , after that the blade needs to be polished and etched ! , only then the bladesmith will be able to see the pattern he created !!!.

the most important carbide former is the Vanadium , and test shows that it is present in most true WOOTZ blades , when it is not present the presence of Molibdenum (higher amount) will be able to form the bands.

tests shoes that Vanadium was present within the ores that were mined in india (especially south india) in the exact needed amount , that's what enabled them to make the blades ! , europe mines did not had that desired percentage and therefore , even when they copied the proccess in an exact manner , they were not able to make damascus in europe !.

it was noticed that wider blades gave better mechanical properties , this as due to the fact the at the back of the blade (the wider part) the cooling rates were slower and so a matrix of ferite with cementit bands was created which was ductile and strong , while at the cutting edge , colling rates were higher so a matrix of pearlite with cementit bands was created which is brittle and hard.

and so those blades could withstand quite massive blowes and still keep an edge , all beceuse the the the ductile part at the back of the blade absorbed most of the energy .

and there for , as was noted before !! , damascus blades were great for cutting flesh but not quite usefull as a working tool .

i have a lot more info , but the post seems long enough , if you have questions i'll be happy to answer them as much as my knowledge permit me .

thanks

shahar

Shahar,

I have a few questions and points.

1)Who hosted the seminar that you gave? Where was it held?

2)Where you a student when you gave the seminar?

3) How many wide and narrow blades have you tested and in what manner?

I have sectioned the ingots and the steel at several points in the forging process from ingot to blade and they indeed show patterns throughout the process. The banding is visible at any point in the process if etched or polished fine enough and viewed in good light.

Vanadium in the ore. I have seen no study that shows the presence of vanadium in the raw ore sources. Please let me know where this analysis is published as I would like to have a copy in my records.

I have seen no difference in the width vs. function of the blades that is not present in other blades of the same cross-section. By this I mean that the mere fact that the blade is wider is the reason for any better mechanical properties, not the wootz or its shape. If anything the finer and more equal the dispersion of the carbides, the better the mechanical properties regarding fatigue and stress resistance.Greetings , and hello .

i will try to answer all you question in the best way i can .

1.the seminar was hosted by the department of materials engineering at ben-gurion University (in israel).

2.i were (and still am) a student there (M.SC).

3. regarding the how many blades i have tested , i have not tested any myself beceuse of the destructive nature of the rquiried tests , i took the information from a few articles i will mention later on.

regarding your next phrase , well i agree with you totaly , you can see the pattern at any time throughout the proccess , but only AFTER you polish and etch (you probably missunderstood me due to my bad english) , the pattern appear beceuse the etching Effect only the cementit .

regarind the vanadium in the ore , i should have mention that this is a scientific diduction , the presence of vanadium is necesary (or larger amounts of molibdenum) , therefore it must have been present within the ore , beceuse as of today we have no proof that they could alloy steels at a degree of ppm (PARTS PER MILLION) That is required for the creation of the damascus.

also it explains why europeans could not repeat the proccess in europe .

regarding the wide of the blade , it will not effect the pattern itself beceuse that pattern is created by the cementit.

wehn the cooling rate is slower (back of the blade) the microstruture that is more stable is ferrite , so you get a microstructure with a ferrite matrix with cementite bands .

but when the cooling rates are higher , like the cutting edge area , the strucrute that will be created will be a pearlite matrix with cementite bands.

the ferrite matrix (it is called DET) will be ductile and give the blade it's trength while the pearlite cutting edge is more brittle and gives the edge it's hardness.

i will state also , that if we assume that all thermal treatments were exactly alike then the blade width will have a great influence on the mechanical properties , but since the bladesmith can decide the cooling rate at each part , i will have to agree with you that the influence , in reality , is very small !.

here is a list of a few articles i used for that seminar :

1 .The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades / J.D.Verhoeven ; A.H.Pendray ; W.E.Dauksch /JOM 50 (9) 1998 pp 58-64

2 .Wootz Damascus Steel Blades / J.D.Verhoeven ; A.H.Pendray ; E.D.Gibson / Materials Characterization 37:9-22 1996.

3 .Wootz , UKKO or true Damascus steel / http://netinfo.hypermart.net/telingsteel.htm

4 .Carbon Diffusion Between the Layers in Modern pattern-welded Damascus blades / J.D.Verhoeven ; Howard F.Clark / Materials Characterization 41:183-191 1998.

5 .Ancient blacksmiths , the iron age , Damascus steels , and modern metallurgy / Oleg D.Sherby ; Jeffrey Wadsworth / Journal of materials Processing Technology 117 (2001) 347-353

6 .Origin of the Damask pattern in Damascus Steel blades / J.D.Verhoeven ; A.H.Pendray / Materials characterization 47 (2001) 423-424.

i hope this helps , please ask if anything is unclear , i do infact learned quite a lot from your questions .

thanks

shahar

Shahar,

I think your English is very good indeed. These are difficult subjects to describe. I also wish you well in your studies.

As to Vandium content in ores:

This is a good idea, but I have not seen one paper on this being true. Even the geology studies in the Deccan region of South India does not show much vanadium in the ores, but as you said we are speaking of very small amounts.

There is a person whom you should meet in Haifa by the name of Artzi Yarom. He is the moderator of the "Islamic forum" on this site:

http://forums.swordforum.com/forumd...&forumid=13

He is knowledgable in these areas and a very good person -- and in Israel.

For some time now there has been discussion about a wootz conference. I do not know if it will ever come to be, but I am pushing for such an event.

Greetings and thanks for your reply

regarding the vanadium , all 9 swords tested by verhoeven showed a specific amount of vanadium , the one who didnt had a larger amount of other carbide formers , by trying to recreate damascus patter under lab conditions , the importance of the vanadium was confirmed , since the ancient sword makers did not had the knowledge for such delictae alloying we have to assume the vanadium was in the ore (how else could it got into the blades ?) , when i mean delicate alloying i mean an amount 0f

40-60 parts per million (parts meaning atoms).

about artzi yarom , well the examples i used in my seminar were taken from his collection , i'm too am a member of the israeli edged weapons collectors association (where he is the chairman).

about the wootz conference , this is a great idea , and i do hope it will come into being (europe or the states - count me in)

shahar

In reading Verhoeven's article about Wootz, it seemed that they were suggesting that Vanadium was present in the Ore's mined over 200 years ago but that that particular ore was all mined out. They based this on the fact that the blades they observed with the best patterns were all over 200 years old and all had some trace amounts of vanadium. The fact that wootz produced after the 18th century generally was not as well defined as earlier blades could be accounted for the lack of Vanadium in the ore mined at that time. Also, I am sure some of the "craft" was lost with subsequent generations. It is probably a vague association(very small sample study) to make.

This makes sense.

If only one blade contained the appropriate amount of vanadium then one could imply that some sort of contamination crept into the process.

Since all 9 blades tested by Verhoeven contained similar amounts of vanadium then there can only be one of two conclusions:

1. The metallurgical technology existed to add the appropriate amount of vanadium to the alloy.

2. The ore being used naturally contained the vanadium.

If 1 is discounted then they must have had a supply of ore that coincidentally contained just the right amount of vanadium.

If this supply was mined out 200 years ago then it explains why no blades less than 200 years old contain trace amounts of vanadium. This fact also helps to disprove conclusion #1 - that the technology existed to add vanadium to the alloy.

It also explains why the process could not be repeated in Europe.

Or it was in the clay of the crucible or it was in the leafy plant matter or it was in the glassy flux or...........it was in the juicy caterpillar that they sacrificed to the forge gods...who knows....

The Romans mined a mountain down to a big hole in the ground in Tartessus, Spain -- Rio Tinto was the name of the mine ("red river" from the color of the water rising from an underground stream loaded with iron). The Mine was in operation for over 5,000 years of human history and is still producing silver, copper and iron today.

I find it hard to believe that ANY ore source can be obliterated to the point that nothing can be found today.

Iron ore tailings and dross (mine debris and slag waste from smelting) from BC and early AD mining in Italy were remelted during WWII by the Italian war machine because it was still very rich in iron. Where are the debris fields in India that have this vanadium impurity?

Could the impurities be in the ore -- you bet. BUT, since wootz was made in several locations from Southern India to Persia to Turkey to the Merv that would mean that ore from one place were also traded to all those smelting sights. Surely that would have been documented somewhere.

If we have records of Hittites trading iron in the 13th Century BC then it is not out of line to have records of wootz (especially in the Moghul courts where a great many things were written down). There are a few records about trade in finished items including swords, but not the ore as far as I have seen. And yet production of wootz steel is still found in other areas outside India.

I do not claim to have the answers, but we do need to do our own research and think critically. I think more and more people are willing to take what is written without analyzing it through the filter of their own wonderful minds.

OK -- the soapbox is now free..........

Hi

I've enjoyed the discussion and would like to add a little....

I'm not really sure why people are placing so much importance on the V content of the steel. Personally, I've read all these studies and find that there is a lack of iron clad evidence for the key role of V in wootz. It is not just an easy matter such as using "steads" etch to see the phosphorous locations in wootz...... wish there was a way of etching the unprocessed ingot to see where exactly the V or V carbides are located. Perhaps I'm being a little too picky, because after all Verhoeven did say that it was the carbide forming elements ( V, Mo, Cr, Mn, Nb ) that were important in the dendritic regions.

Hmmm... seems like almost any iron ore will have some of these as impurities to begin with...... therefore it is no big deal

Oh... and What about the importance of Phosphorous? I think that the build up of P in the austenite/cementite interfaces is much more important!!

just a little something to think about

Greg

By most accounts phos as well as sulphur is to be kept to a minimum. In some migration period swords in Europe high Phos was used (or some could argue simply present) as a contrast in pattern and perhapse it had other useful effects. I believe that there is a study right now at Oxford on this very subject.

Greg,

What are you proposing the Phosphorous does in wootz?

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possible mechanism

Hi

actually what I'm suggesting has already been put forth by Verhoeven...... the mechanisms for grain boundary segregation...

that P-loaded boundaries promote formation of a film of cementite upon cooling.. (and such boundaries are made during the initial cooling of the ingot)

-- now this is fine, but I'm not sure that these phosphorous boundaries are the same as in the ones in the final product. Ofcourse Steads etch can reveal the P regions and a counter etch of Nital can show where the carbides are but what about the other factors?

-- since the ingot is usually thermally treated prior to forging (for soft iron rim) perhaps the phosphorous is dissolved and reformed....in this case there would be new and different boundaries

-- another problem is the severe deformation through forging and the mysterious alignment mechanisms of the carbides..

-- their alignment is in the direction of deformation ....

-- Now if the Phosphorous was the limiting factor... How can the direction be changed so easily...

I find that there is still piles of question that I can add

guess I just wanted to open up the discussion on the many other wonders in Wootz ....

Ps.... which is my favourite steel

Since this is a discussion about wootz steel, I wanted to veer the conversation a little to an interesting inlay on a wootz blade I have. The inlay must have been a hot forge inlay because its effect is a 3-D or holographic one. Wootz is difficult to work with to begin with, but to create this mark as a hot forge inlay must have been quite a technical feat. I wanted to get a more technical point of view on this mark. It is hard to appreciate the softness of the mark without viewing it in person, but it blends with the blade so well that it looks almost like a watermark one finds on old paper. Also, this mark was invisible until only after the blade had been etched to bring out the wootz patterning. Any thoughts to how they would have accomplished this would be appreciated.

Rick,

I have not seen this done on a wootz blade -- a cartouche made this way.

What the smith did was to carve the image in the blade and then forge the blade surface flat again. The image forms because the underlying structure of the wootz is different than the surface. This is very much like the kirk narduban patterns that can be seen on some blades.

The other option is that a small piece of wire was forged into the surface, but it appears from the photo that the wire has pattern as well so I believe that it was made by carving and forging flat.

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Stamp it

I agree with Ric....

- another possible idea is that stamp or punch of the pattern was used to impress the decarb rim into the wootz during forging.....

-- the decarbed and impressed pattern is then later revealed when the uniform decarb rim is removed and the sword is etched.....

-- the decarb or (crap iron) will just appear as a black symbol

whatever the method .....It definitely looks like the pattern was man made and not just a fluke during the etch...... sometimes when you etch wootz ... weird patterns come out if you have edge quenched the steel.. (seems like the quenched area likes to oxidize quicker in the etch )

just my two cents

weblinks on wootz & damascus

I've been collecting some interesting websites on wootz and mechanical damascus (pattern-welding), some of them may be familiar to many here, but I came across some things I hadn't seen before:

Damascus steel (mainly wootz):

WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD by S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan, Department of Metallurgy -- Indian Institute of Science (Bangalore) - particularly interesting discussion of steel in ancient India

Crucible Damascus Steel [=Wootz] by Anna Feuerbach PhD - the author of this website completed her PhD last year on 'Crucible Steel in Central Asia: Production, Use and Origins' - Dr Feuerbach has a forthcoming book on 'crucible steel' (wootz and similar steels) slated for summer 2004. She also has her PhD thesis available on CD (in Word text format) for US$5 to cover materials and postage.

WOOTZ , UKKU or true damascus steel - some basic info & links on damascus steel

The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel [wootz] Blades by J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch - online article which many people here probably already know of

On pattern-welding:

The Serpent in the Sword: Pattern-welding in Early Medieval Swords by Lee A. Jones - ancient Anglo-Saxon and Viking swords analysed; another online article which is probably familiar to many people here

Mechanical properties of Modern Fabricated Pattern Welded Damascus Steels by S. Fedosov, Samara State Technical University (Russia)

Method of making Steel in the style of Damascus written in 1771 by Jean Jacques Perret (English translation)

and right here on swordforum : Sword Forum thread: secrets of pattern-welding

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